Wow, what a great debate.

StroppyChops wrote:Wow, what a great debate.

Spoiler:

http://www.cracked.com/article_18389_th ... lshit.html

Apologies to my fine American friends and contacts - I have much respect for your United States. However, I do struggle with the incessant raving of lunatics of any nationalities.

I've been reading this thread with interest and deliberately not participating as I was raised to not fight with stupid, as it rubs off... but for crying out loud. The war was won by the Red Army. Yes, the RED Army. Churchill told FDR this would be the case - he said it was the ONLY army on the face of the earth that could get the job done. Herr Schicklgruber's munted offspring was never going to succeed against Stalin's boys following their counteroffensive in December 1941, and well he knew it.

The US did NOT participate in WWII until Pearl Harbour was bombed. No respect for an Allied nation that deliberately held back agreed support from it's military allies, until a) it was itself "attacked", b) it had developed a big bomb with which to indiscriminately kill whole populations, and c) jumping in late to a war against a foe that was already defeated and suing for peace. Some small credit to the US industrial machine for generating a lot of the toys of war, to be fair - clearly much safer than committing the sorts of numbers of fighting men and support women that the other allies sent to battle.

Personally I'm tired of hearing how great those big bombs were - the US Strategic Bombing Survey demonstrated that the US atomic bombs did NOT effect the surrender and that in fact the Allied military leaders were begging for them to not be used as they were considered excessive and unnecessary.

Let's also not forget that the Japanese were staging the attack force used to strike Pearl Harbour just over the horizon while simultaneously holding mock 'peace talks' with the US. It's actually doubtful the Americans would have turned out for the skirmish even after Pearl Harbour, other than that Hitler declared war against the US a few days later. And Hitler only did so because why the hell not, at that stage. Note that - the USA ONLY declared war on Germany after Germany declared war on the US.

Side note: kinda cute that the Australian RSL had to get an injunction against 'Murica to prevent the ANZAC legend being 'Hollywooded' as a 'Murican war story.

Google your own sources as "research" is obviously a strength for Team 'Murica.

HotDigr: Go read the Declaration of Independence. In it it states that when a government becomes corrupt, it is the "Duty" of the people to rise up and throw it out. This relates back to the 2nd Amendment-The right to keep and bear arms, something Mommy-countries around the world have taken away from their people/serfs. Our 2nd Amendment may have been written 200 years ago, but it is a pertinent today as it was when we kicked the rif-raf (your ancestors?) out of what became America.

Jamie: If the US hadn't stepped into WWII, you would be speaking German (maybe not a bad thing.) Before the war US merchant mariners (I'm a merchant mariner), were being killed/sunk by German Uboats when they tried to supply a sinking England. Also during that time we had to give England old 4-stack WWI destroyers and rifles as they had none or were lost in France or sunk by Nazi Uboats. England made a nice stand in '40/'41 against Nazi airplanes, but without America stepping in with its "Arsenal-of-Freedom," it was just a matter of time before Hitler and his troops came across the channel in force. England had neither the man power nor the equipment to win the war, but fortunately Hitler was an idiot and attacked Russia before he overran England. Your General Montgomery was an idiot (Patton proved that), but he was the best you had and he got lucky in Egypt. Bottom line, Amerca saved England. Read your history son! Once American industry got cranked up, the German and Japo war machine was doomed. It did help that idiot Hitler attacked Russia a few years too soon. Russia would probibly be better off being German as Stalin killed millions of his own people.

Australia was going to be bombed (some more) and eventually invaded, but the US NAVY put a stop to that at the Battle of the Coral Sea where US son's died defending Australia. The OZ Army made a couple nice stands against the Japo's, but without US troops and equipment they were doomed. Read your history son!

Mr. Cynical: US TV is as embarrassing as you are as a person, so you must enjoy watching it. I believe US TV is aimed at a demographic of 12 year olds so there you are. You might be a little more informed if you read books instead of watching reality TV.

"

I see Sailorman is still a delusional idiot. He suffers from confirmation bias as much he suffers from being a nationalist. Sad really. And for the record Sailorwonk - the English kicked the English out of America. Americans didn't exist until after it was all over.

TheGrinchSR wrote:I see Sailorman is still a delusional idiot. He suffers from confirmation bias as much he suffers from being a nationalist. Sad really. And for the record Sailorwonk - the English kicked the English out of America. Americans didn't exist until after it was all over.

Acually it was the French that were mainly responsible for defeating the English

another shooting
http://edition.cnn.com/2015/10/09/us/no ... index.html

if only there were more guns someone could have shot the shooter.

Sailorman wrote: Jamie: If the US hadn't stepped into WWII, you would be speaking German (maybe not a bad thing.) Before the war US merchant mariners (I'm a merchant mariner), were being killed/sunk by German Uboats when they tried to supply a sinking England. Also during that time we had to give England old 4-stack WWI destroyers and rifles as they had none or were lost in France or sunk by Nazi Uboats. England made a nice stand in '40/'41 against Nazi airplanes, but without America stepping in with its "Arsenal-of-Freedom," it was just a matter of time before Hitler and his troops came across the channel in force. England had neither the man power nor the equipment to win the war, but fortunately Hitler was an idiot and attacked Russia before he overran England. Your General Montgomery was an idiot (Patton proved that), but he was the best you had and he got lucky in Egypt. Bottom line, Amerca saved England. Read your history son! Once American industry got cranked up, the German and Japo war machine was doomed. It did help that idiot Hitler attacked Russia a few years too soon. Russia would probibly be better off being German as Stalin killed millions of his own people.
"

Trust me Sailorman, i may be a boxer but i'm a smart lad, please don't try and educate me with your bullshit Hollywood 'murica "facts"
Germany couldn't defeat the British, Germany could never invade England, we had a far superior Naval and Air force, that's why didn't invade England and turned and went for Russia instead, to which the Germans lost, crippling the Germans, this was all before the Americans did any fighting, So please Educate me with some real evidence of how America came and "Saved the Day".....
You played a part in the war yes, you participated in the war (albeit late) yes, but the Germans were already on the back foot when you decided to get your hands dirty, to which you only got them dirty because Germany declared war with you because you declared war with Japan....
So again, this being the biggest question, why on earth would i be speaking German if America didn't come and join the war, as i stated Germany would never have been able to invade England, his Navel and Air Forces were too inadequate...

TheGrinchSR: I thought the moderator warned you about pointless name calling? If you can't add to the discussion please hold you childish name calling to yourself. Your a one note song and its off key and has no place in this forum. Yes, the COLONISTS kicked the Brits out of America. By the time they did that, they considered themselves as AMERICANS, not Brits.

Jamie: I'm not saying your not educated, far from it. (remember I sat next you at a quiz.) What I'm saying is fact and is the history of WWII. Before America got into the war, merchant mariners like myself were dying by uboats trying to keep England afloat. We had already cranked up our ship building industry, aircraft industry and the auto industry was poised to make tanks instead of cars. Our firearms industry was going full blast due to England losing firearms in France and destroying them after WWI.

Yes, England had a fine navy, but lacked the massive carrier force to protect the capital ships that the US had.. The Germans had already perfected a guided anti-ship bomb/missile to take out the English navy, were raining V-1s on London and were cranking up production of V-2s. They were even building a massive gun in France to drop shells on London, etc. The Germans were already starting to produce jet interceptors, but idiot Hitler wanted them as bombers. The Japo's showed that without air cover capitol ships were setting ducks. They did this by sinking the Prince of Wales and the Repulse. The Prince of Wales btw/ had the most advanced anti-aircraft system of the time, but the japo's sank her in a very short time. BTW/ Germany at this time was building very large aircraft carrier. Yes, England had some fine capital ships, but as Pearl harbor showed they make good targets. Did you know that during the D-Day invasion that the Germans sent over a jet observation/photographic plane that was so fast no plane could catch it. (Arado 234, worlds first jet powered bomber.)

The English airforce was stretched to its limits and could not bomb during the day, thus less accurate, but the Americans did, but at a great loss until the P-51 Mustang appeared. (Spitfire didn't have the range to escort Brit bombers.) England had almost no strategic materials and depended on the US and Canada and was carried in American ships.

If America would have stayed on the sidelines and not sent it merchant ships to supple England (even before our getting into the war) all the Germans had to do was rain death and destruction down on the English cities and it would have been over in no time. Hitler made a big mistake by not taking out the English radar and bombing the airfields. If that had been done, and longer range German escort fighters were brought on line, the battle of Britain would have been very different. Without the radar/airfields, the English airforce was mot.

Look at the D-Day invasions. Count the US Navy ships and then count the ships from other countries. You will find that most were American. Even the lone tanker that made it into Malta was an America tanker. England was losing merchant ships so fast that without American shipyards England would have starved. England didn't have enough warships to escort the merchant ship convoys so the US had to give them a bunch of old WWI 4-stack destroyers and some vessels taken from the US Coast Guard.

The big thing was that it was just a matter of time before the Germans perfected the A-bomb. Just think what one of those would have done to London/Moscow.

Three facts stand out. If America had stayed on the sidelines, Hitler would have invaded Russia a few years later (or not at all), and Hitler would have let his generals run the war, England was toast. You didn't have the resources and the manpower to stand up against the German juggernaut.

Sailorman wrote:Jamie: Please let me point out the obvious. It's my country and there is nothing, including your so called comedian can do about it except jack your jaws and wring you hands.

Please give me an answer to this: Your home at night with your wife and teenage daughter. A crazed drug user with a big knife and/or pistol breaks in to steal, kill you and rape your wife and teenage daughter. Which would you rather have, 1) a cell phone to call the police who may get there within an hour, 2) a pistol to stop the crazy from killing you,raping your wife and teenage daughter.

If you said cell phone, you lying.

See the movie "Law Abiding Citizen."

That's gotta be the best advert for the US that I ever did see. Did you ever stop to wonder what went wrong and when?

phuketrichard wrote:
Case on point,
Switzerland where everyone owns a gun and attends military service , You dont see mass shootings there>

its not JUST about owning guns or the laws concerning buying guns, something is broke in America

It's because it's built on an Indian graveyard. Remember that movie?