a good read; "myths from the Cambodian genocide still reign"

John Bingham · Post by **John Bingham** » Sat Dec 17, 2022 1:50 am

bossho wrote: ↑Fri Dec 16, 2022 11:27 pm Ok, so I was able to read the article in question on my phone and I found it to be good work overall. Richard and JB had me confused in their brief editorials. I disagree with the continued use of the death count of 2 to 2.5 million. I don't think Vickery, Heder or Kiernan use that figure but it continues to get repeated and unchallenged. What I do especially gravitate to in the article is the sense of KR normalcy that is portrayed. Narratives that show this very functional and social KR side are few and far between. It is rare to hear it told in this way but that normalcy seems to have been the case. These bizarre logic twists used to explain away the atrocities committed by Khmer onto Khmer can be seen in other instances of Khmer life and probably are rooted in lack of formal education, multi generational poverty and a tendency to repeat the careless imaginative ramblings of others.
It's likely too far in the past now to gather accounts of largely unaffected Khmer, those that basically did not suffer during the most violent period of KR led Cambodia. Even a seasoned pro like Heder is admits that there exists a massive lack of information about what happened and that social scientists really lack the ability to draw conclusions given how little is confirmed. The academic and political opportunism yielded by the atrocities that did happen seem to make possible for these reiterations of 2 to 2.5 million dead as in killed in the Civil War. No mention anywhere of more reasoned numbers like 750,000 killed and another 750,000 dead by gross mismanagement i.e. starvation by the KR administration. Also, did the word "genocide" just get abused so much that it gained connotation to include what happened in Democratic Kampuchea? What we're talking about is here is Khmer on Khmer murder and violence so how does that qualify as genocide unless of course genocide now means civil war violence and murder against your own ethnicity?

The usual figure agreed on by most organizations, observers or academics is about 1.7 million, and there is a common understanding in most accounts and studies that most died through overwork, starvation or untreated illness. So I'm not sure why you came to your conclusions.

bossho · Post by **bossho** » Sat Dec 17, 2022 3:28 am

I made up that 1.5 million number to concede and make other points. The evidence for that many is not there. I will do some checking today and try to come up something that is not from my posterior and post that.

I continue to wonder about the misuse of the word genocide here. Misuse until it becomes accepted even though its use in relation to Khmer on Khmer killings is beyond strange.

John Bingham · Post by **John Bingham** » Sat Dec 17, 2022 10:12 am

Well during the trial most of the lawyers agreed that it didn't constitute a genocide, except in regard to ethnic Vietnamese and Chams.

bossho · Post by **bossho** » Sun Dec 18, 2022 1:27 am

@JB, yes, out of Heder, Vickery, Chandler and Kiernan only Kiernan uses the term "Genocide" and only in relation to the vicious persecutions of Chams. Cham persecutions were poorly documented and range from 100,000 to 500,000 dead. I remember reading that Vietnam began to use the term "genocide" upon defeating the KR capital at Phnom Penh in January 1979. Vietnam was seeking to distance themselves from the KR even more than they had previously done and upon discovery of the atrocities that had been commited in neighboring Cambodia, Hanoi realpolitik launched an offensive. Rumors had been circling but "genocide" and death count inflation appears to begin when Vietnam got officially involved in 1979. Higher numbers made the US war against Vietnam look even more absurd, tragic and wrong.

What I also found and remember from my efforts to understand this super mysterious complicated story before is that death counts range from under a million to 3 million because academics and journos were tasked with some very nebulus timelines to count against. If you just take the KR in charge officially in Phnom Penh time you get the oft said 3 years 8 months and 24 days or about 1363 days, but we have something really different here to count. The 1970-'73 US bombing casualties within Cambodia were probably about 100,000 utilzing Kiernan and approximating his numbers and KR violence and killing pre '75 was in full swing in the provinces but casualty numbers were difficult to tally.

Also, January 1979 may have meant liberation from KR rule but the after effects of such a brutal, steel toed authoratative government remained and the full effects of their Beijing led gross mismanagement of everything, remained to be seen. People still died after Vietnam came in as a result of the KR's inane attempts to bring about the Agrarion Utopia.

If we just use the 1363 days of official Khmer Rouge rule and say we work with a figure like 1,700,000 million dead by acts of war than that equates to 1247 dead every single day in that period.

DavidK99 · Post by **DavidK99** » Thu Dec 29, 2022 8:52 pm

I did a day trip to Anlong Veng about 3 weeks ago and even brought a rented bicycle out there so I could ride around. I'd read so many things about that place in years past...in the 80's it was mostly rumors, then the rumors turned out to be true and all the news stories started coming out about the place being the KR's final refuge, etc. etc.

The experience was a long strange story and I'm not able to do a proper write up at the moment but here are a few quick comments. The place is a sort of memorial now, and it seems like the nation and/or locals have decided to make it into a sort of "discovery trail" area for Cambodians and foreign visitors. There's signage pointing out the Pot Pot cremation site, Son Sen's burial site, and the Ta Mok compound, which is quite large and has been turned into a museum, and a few other sited. At the "museum" some displays address KR atrocities but others seem prideful and sympathetic. I've read that most people there are KR or their descendants, which I can easily believe. People were not particularly friendly, but they weren't hostile. I'd say they seemed "wary". The kids were friendly and waved, but the adults would kind of glance at me and turn away. Very strange vibes. Absolutely NO ONE I met seemed to speak English or Thai. I ran into a problem late in the day and was trying to seek help for a couple of hours. A couple of people attempted to communicate and assist me, but it was difficult and I almost got stranded there overnight with my bike. I don't think it would have been dangerous, just a huge hassle. I didn't see any other foreigners there.

The road north leads to a Thai border crossing and there's a casino at the top of the hill, which is the frontier. I walked in and it was pretty much like any casino anywhere, except for the setting. I think the clientele are mostly (or maybe all) Thai.

It's a poor area. The chicken I had for lunch in the center of town was the worst meal I'd had in a long time. It was the kind of chicken that, when you try to tear a bite off, refuses to give way and snaps back like a bungee cord, slapping you in the face.

I got the definite feeling that the sites I saw were generally respectful of the KR leadership. At the Pot Pot cremation site people had left plastic flowers, incense, and various trinkets. I spat on the cremation mound and pocketed what looked like an old Tiger Balm jar.

The place was definitely interesting, and very disturbing.

willyhilly · Post by **willyhilly** » Tue Jan 17, 2023 7:28 pm

I always thought the numbers of dead were exaggerated and that most died of over work, disease and the famine after the war. We never hear estimates of those who died due to US bombing.
No one knew what the population was pre KR. The census was corrupted. Provincial Governors exaggerated the numbers to receive extra funding from Phnom Penh.

John Bingham · Post by **John Bingham** » Tue Jan 17, 2023 10:34 pm

willyhilly wrote: ↑Tue Jan 17, 2023 7:28 pm I always thought the numbers of dead were exaggerated and that most died of over work, disease and the famine after the war. We never hear estimates of those who died due to US bombing.
No one knew what the population was pre KR. The census was corrupted. Provincial Governors exaggerated the numbers to receive extra funding from Phnom Penh.

The generally accepted figures of deaths from the Pol Pot regime is about 1.7 million. There were claims of 3 million during the PRK, but it seems the data gathering was faulty. Anyway what that 1.7 covers is deaths above normal levels. As you mentioned, most deaths were from overwork, starvation and preventable diseases. Only a few hundred thousand were actual executions. Only.

bossho · Post by **bossho** » Tue Jan 17, 2023 11:52 pm

@willyhilly Even an ageing tweaker like me did a little research on this one, and you can too. Please look into this and repost something new or idiosyncratic at least regarding the stats during the 1363 days of the regime led Cambodia. 1.7million dead due to civil war is widely accepted on my checks, while 100,000 dead due to US bombing in Eastern Cambodia from 1970-'73 also seems generally accepted. The motivations for faulty claims like 3 million remain fascinating....

John Bingham · Post by **John Bingham** » Wed Jan 18, 2023 12:32 am

bossho wrote: ↑Tue Jan 17, 2023 11:52 pm 1.7million dead due to civil war is widely accepted on my checks, while 100,000 dead due to US bombing in Eastern Cambodia from 1970-'73 also seems generally accepted.

The 1.7 million figure is for excess deaths during the Pol Pot Regime (April1975-January 1979). The figures for the civil war (1970-75) are much more hard to pin down.I'm not sure about this "Eastern Cambodia" being bombed. I prefer to say "The Eastern Half of Cambodia" so it isn't confused with the limited operations "secretly" bombing PAVN/NLF camps near the border in 1969.

Map from USAAF records. The pink dots represent bombing points but are not to scale.

https://gsp.yale.edu/case-studies/cambo ... d-genocide

bossho · Post by **bossho** » Sat Jan 21, 2023 5:18 am

US bombing on Cambodia pre 1975 made for hard tallying. The Cambodian Civil War dates chronologically mirror the US Bombing of Cambodia dates and the divisions and differences between the two state sponspored military actions are not easily seperated.
Given all that, a figure like 100,000 Cambodian civilians killed in US bombing campaigns against North Vietnmese but within Cambodia pre 1975 seems like a widely accepted figure.
Post KR takeover in 1975 and almost lasting 4 years, the deaths over and above normal death rates falls at around 1.75 million.

In both cases, the Cambodian Civil War and the KR led 1363 days of killing I am using middle of the pack widely accepted academic figures, I failed to distinguish between Civil War time and KR time above here but I hope this straightens that out.

"The limited operations 'secretly' bombing PAVN/NLF camps near the border in 1969..." that JB is referring to would be included but would not entirely compose civilian death totals in this period.

a good read; "myths from the Cambodian genocide still reign"

Re: a good read; "myths from the Cambodian genocide still reign"

Re: a good read; "myths from the Cambodian genocide still reign"

Re: a good read; "myths from the Cambodian genocide still reign"

Re: a good read; "myths from the Cambodian genocide still reign"

Re: a good read; "myths from the Cambodian genocide still reign"

Re: a good read; "myths from the Cambodian genocide still reign"

Re: a good read; "myths from the Cambodian genocide still reign"

Re: a good read; "myths from the Cambodian genocide still reign"

Re: a good read; "myths from the Cambodian genocide still reign"

Re: a good read; "myths from the Cambodian genocide still reign"

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