Forget for a minute that communism has largely failed in practice, so many other respectable and not-so-respectable doctrines - Christianity and capitalism respectively - have also failed if we look at the results: from wiki:

Karl Marx[note 1] (/mɑrks/;[4] German pronunciation: [ˈkaɐ̯l ˈmaɐ̯ks]; 5 May 1818 – 14 March 1883) was a German philosopher, economist, sociologist, journalist, and revolutionary socialist. Marx's work in economics laid the basis for much of the current understanding of labour and its relation to capital, and subsequent economic thought.[5][6][7][8] He published numerous books during his lifetime, the most notable being The Communist Manifesto (1848) and Das Kapital (1867–1894).

Born into a wealthy middle-class family in Trier in the Prussian Rhineland, Marx studied at the Universities of Bonn and Berlin where he became interested in the philosophical ideas of the Young Hegelians. After his studies he wrote for Rheinische Zeitung, a radical newspaper in Cologne, and began to work out the theory of the materialist conception of history. He moved to Paris in 1843, where he began writing for other radical newspapers and met Friedrich Engels, who would become his lifelong friend and collaborator. In 1849 he was exiled and moved to London together with his wife and children, where he continued writing and formulating his theories about social and economic activity. He also campaigned for socialism and became a significant figure in the International Workingmen's Association.

Marx's theories about society, economics and politics—the collective understanding of which is known as Marxism—hold that human societies progress through class struggle: a conflict between an ownership class that controls production and a dispossessed labouring class that provides the labour for production. States, Marx believed, were run on behalf of the ruling class and in their interest while representing it as the common interest of all;[9] and he predicted that, like previous socioeconomic systems, capitalism produced internal tensions which would lead to its self-destruction and replacement by a new system: socialism. He argued that class antagonisms under capitalism between the bourgeoisie and proletariat would eventuate in the working class' conquest of political power and eventually establish a classless society, communism, a society governed by a free association of producers.[10][11] Marx actively fought for its implementation, arguing that the working class should carry out organised revolutionary action to topple capitalism and bring about socio-economic change.[12]

Both lauded and criticized, Marx has been described as one of the most influential figures in human history.[13] Many intellectuals, labour unions and political parties worldwide have been influenced by Marx's ideas, with many variations on his groundwork. Marx is typically cited, with Émile Durkheim and Max Weber, as one of the three principal architects of modern social science.[14] End.

1. Was Marx right in his analysis of society?

2. What is the alternative to unfettered capitalism?

3. Why are so many holders of vested interests so scared of criticism, if their model is correct?

1. Yes and no. Marx was an acutely good observer, but a lousy predictor, of human behaviour. He did well on identifying social issues but a lousy job of finding solutions.
2. Regulated capitalism, one that puts people before profits. This doesn't mean that profits are bad or that those who work harder should not be rewarded. It just means that those in less skilled professions, etc. should not be abandoned as "progress" takes place.
3. Human nature. That and they're lying - no-one has come close to a sensible solution for humanity and it's likely that war will be the result of this and a war 1,000 times more brutal than WWII at that.

He was wrong about what motivates human beings. So far nothing works better than greed.

Good answers so far, I could never get this on the bog-forum.

^^^^ You might at 1st, but then 2 f*ckers will go off on each other & completely hijack your thread.

vladimir wrote:Forget for a minute that communism has largely failed in practice, so many other respectable and not-so-respectable doctrines - Christianity and capitalism respectively - have also failed if we look at the results: from wiki:

Spoiler:

Karl Marx[note 1] (/mɑrks/;[4] German pronunciation: [ˈkaɐ̯l ˈmaɐ̯ks]; 5 May 1818 – 14 March 1883) was a German philosopher, economist, sociologist, journalist, and revolutionary socialist. Marx's work in economics laid the basis for much of the current understanding of labour and its relation to capital, and subsequent economic thought.[5][6][7][8] He published numerous books during his lifetime, the most notable being The Communist Manifesto (1848) and Das Kapital (1867–1894).

Born into a wealthy middle-class family in Trier in the Prussian Rhineland, Marx studied at the Universities of Bonn and Berlin where he became interested in the philosophical ideas of the Young Hegelians. After his studies he wrote for Rheinische Zeitung, a radical newspaper in Cologne, and began to work out the theory of the materialist conception of history. He moved to Paris in 1843, where he began writing for other radical newspapers and met Friedrich Engels, who would become his lifelong friend and collaborator. In 1849 he was exiled and moved to London together with his wife and children, where he continued writing and formulating his theories about social and economic activity. He also campaigned for socialism and became a significant figure in the International Workingmen's Association.

Marx's theories about society, economics and politics—the collective understanding of which is known as Marxism—hold that human societies progress through class struggle: a conflict between an ownership class that controls production and a dispossessed labouring class that provides the labour for production. States, Marx believed, were run on behalf of the ruling class and in their interest while representing it as the common interest of all;[9] and he predicted that, like previous socioeconomic systems, capitalism produced internal tensions which would lead to its self-destruction and replacement by a new system: socialism. He argued that class antagonisms under capitalism between the bourgeoisie and proletariat would eventuate in the working class' conquest of political power and eventually establish a classless society, communism, a society governed by a free association of producers.[10][11] Marx actively fought for its implementation, arguing that the working class should carry out organised revolutionary action to topple capitalism and bring about socio-economic change.[12]

Both lauded and criticized, Marx has been described as one of the most influential figures in human history.[13] Many intellectuals, labour unions and political parties worldwide have been influenced by Marx's ideas, with many variations on his groundwork. Marx is typically cited, with Émile Durkheim and Max Weber, as one of the three principal architects of modern social science.[14] End.

1. Was Marx right in his analysis of society?

2. What is the alternative to unfettered capitalism?

3. Why are so many holders of vested interests so scared of criticism, if their model is correct?

I like how you pre-load your discussion with "Christianity is a failure" and then completely neglect to substantiate your statement. That's a fairly juvenile debating tactic.

StroppyChops wrote:I like how you pre-load your discussion with "Christianity is a failure" and then completely neglect to substantiate your statement. That's a fairly juvenile debating tactic.

Yeah, that seems kind of a major hole. Communism imploded after just a few decades of disastrous experiments. In some places, such as China and Cambodia, it also managed to distill some of the worst sorts of atrocities that have been committed under capitalism and Christianity down to a highly intense, magnified form. OTOH Christianity has impacted a large portion of the world for nearly 2000 years, and capitalism (ugly or not) is currently taking the world by storm, especially the old commie world. It's hard to see how these three approaches could be lumped into the same category of "failure." If they have all been "failures," surely it is not the same sort of failure, and needs a lot more explanation.

SC and LTO: No, I didn't preload. I specifically said if you look at the results. SC, would you say the world is mostly good? I doubt it. And LTO, as a private business owner, you may be biased. The question was NOT about what happened in practice, the question was about whether the theory/ his observations of the nature of mankind were right.

The theory of Christianity is as near 'good' as any religion, imho, and the theory of communism/Marxism closely follows the idea of share and share alike, love thy neighbour. but...the practice...is another thing.

That does not mean that the theory is wrong, merely that it is abused.

So now, forget about your allegiances, forget about the perceived insults, the world is fucked up, capitalism has taken it by storm, yes, but so did AIDS at one stage. Numbers do not mean good, you both know that.

And yes, the practice of communism failed, but compared to what?

tbh, I had hoped for a slightly better response, one more concerned with the theory. And please, let's not fail to mention the whore of capitalism, which has been responsible for so many wars, but I see that gets no mention, nada.

SC, you may remember this one Christian dude Jesus, who said that the love of money is the root of all evil. Now, who loves money more, communists or capitalists? It's not a trick question, btw.

Well it may have been a great theory at the time, and it may have been more relevant as a product of his time as he saw it, but if it fails in practice then it's not much good to anyone as it just becomes another failed theory. My problem with communism from what I've seen is as you mention Vlad, it's abused by the cliques/politbureau's at the top who seek to enforce it on the masses in a totalitarian approach, whilst they themselves enjoy the trappings as much as any ostentatious capitalist. In that sense I think peoples human nature may lean towards wanting the freedom to progress. A good system should allow that and encourage it and I can only see a form of " Caring Capitalism " as doing that, as mentioned by GrinchSR's point 2. I'm not suggesting that we've reached that doctrine in practice but the convergence of political parties to a more central right ground is my preference. I favour the approach of Bill Gates who built up something he was passionate about and now uses that wealth for the greater good in education and science in all parts of the world, cutting out some of the corrupt regimes and ideologies that never seem to benefit the less fortunate.

Yup, I agree, a combination of the two. Both need strict regulation.

Bill Gates gave us ctrl+alt+del, his place in hell is assured, LOL