Do you support Ukraine or Russia?

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Do you support Russia or Ukraine in this conflict?

Poll ended at Wed Mar 02, 2022 10:32 pm

Russia
14
18%
Ukraine
58
73%
It's a hoax
2
3%
I don't know.
5
6%
 
Total votes: 79
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nemo
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Re: Do you support Ukraine or Russia?

Post by nemo »

Keep it simple ... That's a good life plan Nemo, I applaud you ..... Everything black and white, no grey, no nuance, no context .... Life I bet is much simpler that way .... If ignorance is bliss I'm guessing you're a pretty happy fellow ..... TBH I'm just a little jealous. ;-)
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meh, ad homs and assumptions.
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IraHayes
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Re: Do you support Ukraine or Russia?

Post by IraHayes »

One thing the war has been good for is tank design/weaknesses and antitank missile manufacturing/design.
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Re: Do you support Ukraine or Russia?

Post by Kammekor »

Kenr wrote: Fri Apr 15, 2022 1:05 am
Kammekor wrote: Fri Apr 15, 2022 12:00 am
John Bingham wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 11:17 pm The great thing about this poll was how it got posted when the invasion seemed imminent but it was not at all clear where we were heading. We still have Putin supporters on the board but they don't seem to be able to argue their side very well. There is no possible justification for what has happened in the past month or so.
There is, but you need a totally different view on the current situation than the one most Westerners have.
The view of a country which was attacked by Germany twice in the last century, made major sacrifices to turn the second World War (which they refer to as the BIG war) into a win, and after that victory claimed a buffer zone which was simply based on the areas they took over.
They lost all those buffer zones in the nineties, and despite promises (undocumented promises) a lot of the former buffer zone states entered NATO.
Add to that the root of Russia, Ukraine, wants to be part of that block and Putin will come to the rescue.
I'm no Putin defender, but when you look at history beyond a few years, and you look at the things Putin has said and done ever since he's been in power he's been pretty consistent and his current actions fit a pattern rather than being the behavior of a lunatic who lost it all.
That may be a valid argument if that were his only reason he has claimed to invade Ukraine. He blames NATO, he claims the Ukrainians were committing genocide on Russians, he wants to denazify Ukraine, he claims Ukraine is not a sovereign country and was/is always part of Russia, etc. Sounds like he’s covering every angle to justify why he has chosen to do this now.

And the Kremlin is talking shit about reclaiming all the land that once belonged to them, including Alaska? Sounds like a group of lunatics to me.

All this has done is force Sweden and Finland to join NATO.
I think the retorics should be separated from history.

It's very easy and very convenient to look at Putin as a lunatic, just like people looked at Hitler just after WW2, because lunatics don't follow reason and thus there's no blame on us.

This war has done a lot more than forcing Sweden and Finland into NATO. This war will result in a long time break between Russia and Europe, this war will make generals think again about the classic paradigm of the use of tanks, this war will make China re-consider a nautical invasion of Taiwan (imagine the vulnerability) and finally this war might end in tears when NATO doesn't control itself and Putin decides to use weapons of mass destruction.
If Sweden and Finland join NATO that's going to be major game changer and Putin won't accept it.
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Re: Do you support Ukraine or Russia?

Post by Doc67 »

IraHayes wrote: Fri Apr 15, 2022 11:30 am One thing the war has been good for is tank design/weaknesses and antitank missile manufacturing/design.
When you have a $300 Billion arms industry, sooner or later you are going to need a "theatre" in which to make them go BANG. Otherwise you'll never really know how good they are in real time.

You look great for helping out the poor oppressed people of Ukraine, and also the rest of the world can watch in awe at just how good those Javelin/Stinger missiles are and add them to next year's defence spending wish list. The arms company loves it so much they make more political donations.

It's a win-win-win (unless you happen to be driving a Russian tank)
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Re: Do you support Ukraine or Russia?

Post by siliconlife »

Kammekor wrote: Fri Apr 15, 2022 12:44 pm I think the retorics should be separated from history.

It's very easy and very convenient to look at Putin as a lunatic, just like people looked at Hitler just after WW2, because lunatics don't follow reason and thus there's no blame on us.
I agree, Putin should be seen more as an incompetent brute.
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Re: Do you support Ukraine or Russia?

Post by Doc67 »

Kammekor wrote: Fri Apr 15, 2022 12:44 pm
Kenr wrote: Fri Apr 15, 2022 1:05 am
Kammekor wrote: Fri Apr 15, 2022 12:00 am
John Bingham wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 11:17 pm The great thing about this poll was how it got posted when the invasion seemed imminent but it was not at all clear where we were heading. We still have Putin supporters on the board but they don't seem to be able to argue their side very well. There is no possible justification for what has happened in the past month or so.
There is, but you need a totally different view on the current situation than the one most Westerners have.
The view of a country which was attacked by Germany twice in the last century, made major sacrifices to turn the second World War (which they refer to as the BIG war) into a win, and after that victory claimed a buffer zone which was simply based on the areas they took over.
They lost all those buffer zones in the nineties, and despite promises (undocumented promises) a lot of the former buffer zone states entered NATO.
Add to that the root of Russia, Ukraine, wants to be part of that block and Putin will come to the rescue.
I'm no Putin defender, but when you look at history beyond a few years, and you look at the things Putin has said and done ever since he's been in power he's been pretty consistent and his current actions fit a pattern rather than being the behavior of a lunatic who lost it all.
That may be a valid argument if that were his only reason he has claimed to invade Ukraine. He blames NATO, he claims the Ukrainians were committing genocide on Russians, he wants to denazify Ukraine, he claims Ukraine is not a sovereign country and was/is always part of Russia, etc. Sounds like he’s covering every angle to justify why he has chosen to do this now.

And the Kremlin is talking shit about reclaiming all the land that once belonged to them, including Alaska? Sounds like a group of lunatics to me.

All this has done is force Sweden and Finland to join NATO.
I think the retorics should be separated from history.

It's very easy and very convenient to look at Putin as a lunatic, just like people looked at Hitler just after WW2, because lunatics don't follow reason and thus there's no blame on us.

This war has done a lot more than forcing Sweden and Finland into NATO. This war will result in a long time break between Russia and Europe, this war will make generals think again about the classic paradigm of the use of tanks, this war will make China re-consider a nautical invasion of Taiwan (imagine the vulnerability) and finally this war might end in tears when NATO doesn't control itself and Putin decides to use weapons of mass destruction.
If Sweden and Finland join NATO that's going to be major game changer and Putin won't accept it.
Finland and Sweden's neutrality and non-alliance has serve them well for a long time. However, they have seen what has happened to Ukraine and NATO's refusal to become embroiled. They are in a tight spot as their previous position made them more secure as it pacified Russia. However, it now looks more like a liability than an asset.

I agree, Putin will consider their accession to NATO membership as a threat, not as an obvious consequence on his Ukraine invasion.

Will NATO accept their membership? Sweden is a safer bet, but Finland shares a huge border with Russia including one that is just over 100 miles from St.Petersberg.
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Re: Do you support Ukraine or Russia?

Post by Kenr »

Kammekor wrote: Fri Apr 15, 2022 12:44 pm
Kenr wrote: Fri Apr 15, 2022 1:05 am
Kammekor wrote: Fri Apr 15, 2022 12:00 am
John Bingham wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 11:17 pm The great thing about this poll was how it got posted when the invasion seemed imminent but it was not at all clear where we were heading. We still have Putin supporters on the board but they don't seem to be able to argue their side very well. There is no possible justification for what has happened in the past month or so.
There is, but you need a totally different view on the current situation than the one most Westerners have.
The view of a country which was attacked by Germany twice in the last century, made major sacrifices to turn the second World War (which they refer to as the BIG war) into a win, and after that victory claimed a buffer zone which was simply based on the areas they took over.
They lost all those buffer zones in the nineties, and despite promises (undocumented promises) a lot of the former buffer zone states entered NATO.
Add to that the root of Russia, Ukraine, wants to be part of that block and Putin will come to the rescue.
I'm no Putin defender, but when you look at history beyond a few years, and you look at the things Putin has said and done ever since he's been in power he's been pretty consistent and his current actions fit a pattern rather than being the behavior of a lunatic who lost it all.
That may be a valid argument if that were his only reason he has claimed to invade Ukraine. He blames NATO, he claims the Ukrainians were committing genocide on Russians, he wants to denazify Ukraine, he claims Ukraine is not a sovereign country and was/is always part of Russia, etc. Sounds like he’s covering every angle to justify why he has chosen to do this now.

And the Kremlin is talking shit about reclaiming all the land that once belonged to them, including Alaska? Sounds like a group of lunatics to me.

All this has done is force Sweden and Finland to join NATO.
I think the retorics should be separated from history.

It's very easy and very convenient to look at Putin as a lunatic, just like people looked at Hitler just after WW2, because lunatics don't follow reason and thus there's no blame on us.

This war has done a lot more than forcing Sweden and Finland into NATO. This war will result in a long time break between Russia and Europe, this war will make generals think again about the classic paradigm of the use of tanks, this war will make China re-consider a nautical invasion of Taiwan (imagine the vulnerability) and finally this war might end in tears when NATO doesn't control itself and Putin decides to use weapons of mass destruction.
If Sweden and Finland join NATO that's going to be major game changer and Putin won't accept it.
If NATO doesn’t control itself? Who invaded what country? And really, who gives a shit what Putin does or doesn’t accept? Putin won’t be happy unless he is able to resurrect the U.S.S.R. back to the way it was. Just another autocrat who is power hungry for world domination.
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Re: Do you support Ukraine or Russia?

Post by hdgh29 »

siliconlife wrote: Fri Apr 15, 2022 8:55 am
hdgh29 wrote: Fri Apr 15, 2022 8:05 am When I hear Zelenski (a failed actor / comedian) bleating, and when I hear all the reports about atrocities by Russian troops (raping mothers in front of their children, massacring whole villages etc) I am reminded of the WW1 propaganda, German troops bayoneting babies and such like. As for new s stories about Putin being a blood crazed mad man,that is entirely contrary to what the world has seen of him i the last 20 years. He has always come across as an intelligent, thoughtful leader, who had the measure of Trump in the first 5 minutes of meeting him, and is well known for his calm demeanor. But we only hear one side of the story, which historically has always been slanted against Russia. And lets not forget, this conflict is big biccies for the arms industry in the US. They aint giving all those weapons for free, thats for sure. War is hell, people die. The US has more blood on their hands in the last two centuries than Russia ever will have.
So, what's your stance on Hitler? :stir:
well of course he had his bad points, although in those days everything was more open. F**k knows what Biden and men like him are up to these days. Plus he liked dogs. Some people, not so much, but dogs, loved em. Oh by the way, you have just proved the validity of Godwin's Law.
"I tried being reasonable. Didn't like it" (Clint Eastwood)
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Re: Do you support Ukraine or Russia?

Post by John Bingham »

hdgh29 wrote: Fri Apr 15, 2022 8:05 am As for new s stories about Putin being a blood crazed mad man,that is entirely contrary to what the world has seen of him i the last 20 years.
You must be very young, don't you know anything about Chechnya, Abkhazia or South Ossetia? :?
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Re: Do you support Ukraine or Russia?

Post by hdgh29 »

John Bingham wrote: Fri Apr 15, 2022 4:41 pm
hdgh29 wrote: Fri Apr 15, 2022 8:05 am As for new s stories about Putin being a blood crazed mad man,that is entirely contrary to what the world has seen of him i the last 20 years.
You must be very young, don't you know anything about Chechnya, Abkhazia or South Ossetia? :?
I try to avoid involvement or even commenting on the internal affairs of distant lands, especially since I don't have a clue where they are. I leave them alone and I expect them to leave me alone. Its worked out ok so far.
"I tried being reasonable. Didn't like it" (Clint Eastwood)
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