Do you support Ukraine or Russia?

newkidontheblock · Post by **newkidontheblock** » Mon Jan 15, 2024 11:42 pm

John Bingham wrote:Ukraine has destroyed a lot of Russian assets recently. Many aircraft and another large landing craft. In response they fire a huge salvo at random civilian facilities. Desperation.

Maybe due to lack of chips. Russia has been getting them from China which can make 20-50 size chips (vs 7 or less TSMC makes) as well as taking them out of commercial products imported from former Soviet republics. Lower class chips, less accuracy. Enough to hit a large civilian building. Not enough to target vehicles or antennas or foxholes accurately.

John Bingham · Post by **John Bingham** » Sun Feb 11, 2024 12:10 am

For some context on how the modern Russian and Western modes of war differ; Iraq's population in 2003 was 27 million; 10 years later in 2013 it was 36 million. Syria's population in 2011 was 23 million, 10 years later it was 21 million.

Afghanistan also works as an example; in 1979 when the USSR invasion started its population was 13 million, in 1989 11 million; in 2001 and the USA's invasion it had reached 20 million (despite the civil war), and by 2011 it was 29 million.

And needless to say, the Western modes of war are devastating in their own right - yet do not produce this particular result. One can probably find Russia's supporters bragging about this effect on the Ukrainian population without looking too hard.

Roryborealis · Post by **Roryborealis** » Sun Feb 11, 2024 12:19 am

The population changes in Crimea are also worth noting in this context. The Tatar perspective should be heard.

https://www.voanews.com/a/a-look-at-his ... 91631.html

https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2023 ... er-russian

hmph · Post by **hmph** » Sun Feb 11, 2024 2:09 am

This is an old thread, so it seems I cannot vote. But I support Russia 100%. Why? Because they spent 8 years trying to resolve the issue diplomatically. Had Ukraine implemented the Minsk Agreement that passed the UN Security Council and became international law. None of this would have happened. Donbass would have had autonomous status but still be a part of Ukraine.

Then Ukraine had a second chance with the Istanbul agreements, which arguably would have been much worse than the Minsk Agreements. But the "West" told them we'll support you any way we can if you keep fighting the Russians.

Now things are so bad that I wonder if there will ever be a Ukrainian state after this is all over. We have Polish, Hungarian, and Romanian politicians wanting to annex what's left of Ukraine after the Russians have taken their part.

newkidontheblock · Post by **newkidontheblock** » Sun Feb 11, 2024 3:20 am

hmph wrote:This is an old thread, so it seems I cannot vote. But I support Russia 100%. Why? Because they spent 8 years trying to resolve the issue diplomatically. Had Ukraine implemented the Minsk Agreement that passed the UN Security Council and became international law. None of this would have happened. Donbass would have had autonomous status but still be a part of Ukraine.

Then Ukraine had a second chance with the Istanbul agreements, which arguably would have been much worse than the Minsk Agreements. But the "West" told them we'll support you any way we can if you keep fighting the Russians.

Now things are so bad that I wonder if there will ever be a Ukrainian state after this is all over. We have Polish, Hungarian, and Romanian politicians wanting to annex what's left of Ukraine after the Russians have taken their part.

Russia promised never to invade Ukraine in return for sending its nuclear weapons back to Russia. The result? Little green men invaded Crimea and Donbas, then the whole of Ukraine later.

Please enlighten me about Poland, Hungary, and Romania massing troops and whole divisions into Ukrainian territory.

Poland is building Europe’s largest military specifically to prevent Russian invasion. As the second strongest member of NATO, they have no dreams of rebuilding the Caliphate like Turkey. Just like Japan and the Philippines and Vietnam are arming themselves because of China, not that China is arming itself to defend against them.

Roryborealis · Post by **Roryborealis** » Sun Feb 11, 2024 3:48 am

Orban & Fidesz are not shy about vocalizing Hungary's perennially irredentist (or revanchist) views on Transcarpathia.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/hu ... 024-01-28/

"If this war ends up with Ukraine losing its statehood, because this is also on the cards, then as the only Hungarian party taking this position, let me signal that we lay claim to Transcarpathia," he said, drawing applause from the crowd.

newkidontheblock · Post by **newkidontheblock** » Sun Feb 11, 2024 4:56 am

Roryborealis wrote:Orban & Fidesz are not shy about vocalizing Hungary's perennially irredentist (or revanchist) views on Transcarpathia.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/hu ... 024-01-28/

"If this war ends up with Ukraine losing its statehood, because this is also on the cards, then as the only Hungarian party taking this position, let me signal that we lay claim to Transcarpathia," he said, drawing applause from the crowd.

Leaders of a party that holds 3% of the Hungarian Parliament is hardly a majority voice and doesn’t really express the plurality views of the Hungarian people.

Just like the Natives laying claim to the whole of Manhattan Island (New York City) and demanding it be handed back immediately.

Now if this 3% was the overwhelming majority of the military that wanted to overthrow the democratic government, it would be a different matter.

As for Romania, the ultra nationalist is all over the map.

https://news.yahoo.com/romanian-senato ... 203%20CNN.

Romania joined NATO to defend against Russian invasion (12 times in the past), so Romania can invade Ukraine?

Majority of Romanians also don’t share his views.

“Disapproval of the Russian leadership shown in a poll in Romania rose from 37% in 2021 to 79% in 2022.”

Kammekor · Post by **Kammekor** » Sun Feb 11, 2024 1:19 pm

hmph wrote: ↑Sun Feb 11, 2024 2:09 am This is an old thread, so it seems I cannot vote. But I support Russia 100%. Why? Because they spent 8 years trying to resolve the issue diplomatically. Had Ukraine implemented the Minsk Agreement that passed the UN Security Council and became international law. None of this would have happened. Donbass would have had autonomous status but still be a part of Ukraine.

If annexation and proxy wars are diplomacy you're right of course.

hmph wrote: ↑Sun Feb 11, 2024 2:09 am Now things are so bad that I wonder if there will ever be a Ukrainian state after this is all over. We have Polish, Hungarian, and Romanian politicians wanting to annex what's left of Ukraine after the Russians have taken their part.

What makes you think that?

HaifongWangchuck · Post by **HaifongWangchuck** » Thu Feb 15, 2024 9:13 pm

Kammekor wrote: ↑Sun Feb 11, 2024 1:19 pm
hmph wrote: ↑Sun Feb 11, 2024 2:09 am This is an old thread, so it seems I cannot vote. But I support Russia 100%. Why? Because they spent 8 years trying to resolve the issue diplomatically. Had Ukraine implemented the Minsk Agreement that passed the UN Security Council and became international law. None of this would have happened. Donbass would have had autonomous status but still be a part of Ukraine.
If annexation and proxy wars are diplomacy you're right of course.
[

What were the events that led up to said moment? Seems to be missing a wee bit of context

Kammekor · Post by **Kammekor** » Fri Feb 16, 2024 8:33 am

HaifongWangchuck wrote: ↑Thu Feb 15, 2024 9:13 pm
Kammekor wrote: ↑Sun Feb 11, 2024 1:19 pm
hmph wrote: ↑Sun Feb 11, 2024 2:09 am This is an old thread, so it seems I cannot vote. But I support Russia 100%. Why? Because they spent 8 years trying to resolve the issue diplomatically. Had Ukraine implemented the Minsk Agreement that passed the UN Security Council and became international law. None of this would have happened. Donbass would have had autonomous status but still be a part of Ukraine.
If annexation and proxy wars are diplomacy you're right of course.
[
What were the events that led up to said moment? Seems to be missing a wee bit of context

I don't think there's any context needed here, your statement Russia tried to solve the issue diplomatically during 8 years is simply wrong.

Do you support Ukraine or Russia?

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