nemo wrote: ↑Sat Oct 23, 2021 2:14 pm I have observed before that sometimes expats who present propaganda against the government find EOS are declined.

It’s not hard to work out who the OP is on FB. I’m sure “they” know.

John Bingham wrote: ↑Sat Oct 23, 2021 2:00 amThe Vietnamese withdrew in 1989, 2 years before these Paris Peace Agreements. The agrrements are often lauded as "bringing peace" to Cambodia. They certainly did a lot to bring peace by bringing the ANS (FUNCINPEC Royalist Army) and KPNLF (Nationalist army composed of former Lon Nol supporters/ Republicans) into the fold. Not that those alliances always lasted long. The war with the so-called Khmer Rouge expanded after the UN left and didn't end till the late 90s. The UN and international community like to claim Cambodia as a success story, in reality if it wasn't for the boss and his win win policy the place would still be in ruins.

I think you're being a bit selective with your facts. The Vietnamese withdrew because of the rapprochement with China which had already started by 88. Soviet aid had dried up and it was basically pointless for them to stay on. Once the Soviet Union collapsed along with the rest of Eurocommunism, China and Vietnam were scared shitless and really keen on finding a solution to the Cambodian issue an willing to do anything with the US and Europe. So the PPA came to fruition largely by outside forces, not from within, and though it was a rocky road ahead, I think it's fair to say that no future peace could have materialized without it as the catalyst.

Kuroneko wrote: ↑Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:32 am It is crystal clear that HRW’s core members have had a long history of grudges against Cambodian leaders whom they have accused of violating human rights without presenting credible facts or evidence. Their ambition is to bring down the legitimate government by provoking people’s discontent with and mistrust of the government."

There has been pleeeeenty of credible evidence which showcase the judicial and political basketcase Cambodia can be at times. However, I totally agree that it's ludicrous to label Cambodia or the PPA as a "failure" in any way. Cambodia has been a huge success not only economically, but also in terms of safety. The main issue for them is that the political pluralism which was hoped for (naïvely) never materialized. We have to remember that the 90s were a time of great political optimism which is too easily dismissed as foolish now with hindsight. However, the US was the sole superpower, democracy was the victor and years later the sting of how things transpired (politically) here still seems to annoy some of the original players. Keep in mind, the US was footing more than 80% of the UN's budget in the early 90s, with Japan and Europe providing most of the rest. It's HRW's job to talk about stuff like that though, so they'll always be a bit over-the-top.

Ordinary Khmer people are certainly vastly better off, materially, in health, in education than when I first visited in 2007.

The pace of change here is very noteworthy.

Bitte_Kein_Lexus wrote: ↑Sat Oct 23, 2021 4:34 pm I think you're being a bit selective with your facts.

How am I being selective? I stated that they withdrew in 1989 in response to NKOTB's assertion that the 1991 Paris Peace Agreement allowed the Vietnamese to leave Cambodia. I didn't even attempt any explanation of how it came about, obviously it was years in the making. And let's not forget that Thailand was still supplying the Khmer Rouge long after the agreement.
https://www.csmonitor.com/1993/1229/29041.html

John Bingham wrote: ↑Sat Oct 23, 2021 4:47 pm

Bitte_Kein_Lexus wrote: ↑Sat Oct 23, 2021 4:34 pm I think you're being a bit selective with your facts.

How am I being selective? I stated that they withdrew in 1989 in response to NKOTB's assertion that the 1991 Paris Peace Agreement allowed the Vietnamese to leave Cambodia. I didn't even attempt any explanation of how it came about, obviously it was years in the making. And let's not forget that Thailand was still supplying the Khmer Rouge long after the agreement.
https://www.csmonitor.com/1993/1229/29041.html

I meant it regarding the last part of your statement that I interpreted as peace being the sole making of HE's magic wand. While I agree that lasting peace (disregarding political outcomes) couldn't have been easily achieved without him post UNTAC, the PPA (which foreign powers had a large hand to play in) were equally significant. Both were necessary for lasting peace as they set the groundwork for it.

Kammekor wrote: ↑Sat Oct 23, 2021 4:54 pm

Bitte_Kein_Lexus wrote: ↑Sat Oct 23, 2021 4:34 pm We have to remember that the 90s were a time of great political optimism which is too easily dismissed as foolish now with hindsight. However, the US was the sole superpower, democracy was the victor and years later the sting of how things transpired (politically) here still seems to annoy some of the original players. Keep in mind, the US was footing more than 80% of the UN's budget in the early 90s, with Japan and Europe providing most of the rest. It's HRW's job to talk about stuff like that though, so they'll always be a bit over-the-top.

The nineties have effectively been 'a holiday from history' and the turn of the century ended that holiday.

Stating Cambodia has not been developed since 30 years back is indeed simply ludicrous IMHO. Talk to any Cambodian about the difference between 30 years back and now and very, very few (probably none) are willing to exchange today's daily life for the life back then.

That doesn't mean Cambodia isn't facing serious issues now. Dependencies, human rights, geopolitics, gap between poor and rich, education, health care, environmental issues... Just to name a few.

Totally agree.

Bitte_Kein_Lexus wrote: ↑Sat Oct 23, 2021 9:28 pm

John Bingham wrote: ↑Sat Oct 23, 2021 4:47 pm

Bitte_Kein_Lexus wrote: ↑Sat Oct 23, 2021 4:34 pm I think you're being a bit selective with your facts.

How am I being selective? I stated that they withdrew in 1989 in response to NKOTB's assertion that the 1991 Paris Peace Agreement allowed the Vietnamese to leave Cambodia. I didn't even attempt any explanation of how it came about, obviously it was years in the making. And let's not forget that Thailand was still supplying the Khmer Rouge long after the agreement.
https://www.csmonitor.com/1993/1229/29041.html

I meant it regarding the last part of your statement that I interpreted as peace being the sole making of HE's magic wand. While I agree that lasting peace (disregarding political outcomes) couldn't have been easily achieved without him post UNTAC, the PPA (which foreign powers had a large hand to play in) were equally significant. Both were necessary for lasting peace as they set the groundwork for it.

Yes, which is why I wrote that:

The agreements are often lauded as "bringing peace" to Cambodia. They certainly did a lot to bring peace by bringing the ANS (FUNCINPEC Royalist Army) and KPNLF (Nationalist army composed of former Lon Nol supporters/ Republicans) into the fold. Not that those alliances always lasted long.

So the agreements had a limited success which I acknowledged. However the ANS and KPLNF armies were the least effective in the so called "CGDK" alliance - basically just a front that gave legitimacy to Khmer Rouge.
A peace agreement that the largest resistance army didn't comply with doesn't deserve to be called a peace agreement. It also doesn't deserve the huge emphasis put on it by opposition party supporters, the Republican Institute, RFA etc. The foreign audience deserve better than to be lied to by these dubious organizations.

We have already debunked all that. Why do you keep pushing US/ CNRP propaganda? You think we can't remember their xenophobic and racist policies? Democracy? Name one democratic country in the region? I won't hold my breath.

John Bingham wrote:

Bitte_Kein_Lexus wrote: ↑Sat Oct 23, 2021 9:28 pm

John Bingham wrote: ↑Sat Oct 23, 2021 4:47 pm

Bitte_Kein_Lexus wrote: ↑Sat Oct 23, 2021 4:34 pm I think you're being a bit selective with your facts.

How am I being selective? I stated that they withdrew in 1989 in response to NKOTB's assertion that the 1991 Paris Peace Agreement allowed the Vietnamese to leave Cambodia. I didn't even attempt any explanation of how it came about, obviously it was years in the making. And let's not forget that Thailand was still supplying the Khmer Rouge long after the agreement.
https://www.csmonitor.com/1993/1229/29041.html

I meant it regarding the last part of your statement that I interpreted as peace being the sole making of HE's magic wand. While I agree that lasting peace (disregarding political outcomes) couldn't have been easily achieved without him post UNTAC, the PPA (which foreign powers had a large hand to play in) were equally significant. Both were necessary for lasting peace as they set the groundwork for it.

Yes, which is why I wrote that:

The agreements are often lauded as "bringing peace" to Cambodia. They certainly did a lot to bring peace by bringing the ANS (FUNCINPEC Royalist Army) and KPNLF (Nationalist army composed of former Lon Nol supporters/ Republicans) into the fold. Not that those alliances always lasted long.

So the agreements had a limited success which I acknowledged. However the ANS and KPLNF armies were the least effective in the so called "CGDK" alliance - basically just a front that gave legitimacy to Khmer Rouge.
A peace agreement that the largest resistance army didn't comply with doesn't deserve to be called a peace agreement. It also doesn't deserve the huge emphasis put on it by opposition party supporters, the Republican Institute, RFA etc. The foreign audience deserve better than to be lied to by these dubious organizations.

Fair enough. I just meant that the place would also be in shambles and there would have been no win-win policy to implement if it hadn't been for the intervention of outside powers and the "accomplishment" of PPA as a precursor. Peace wasn't only HE's doing, regardless of what a new bill might imply (though he obviously played a massive role both prior to and post PPA). China told the KR to play ball when they initially balked, while the others worked hard for a long time prior to 91 to bring as many factions together as possible.