Do you agree with mandatory vaccinations

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do you agree with mandatory Vaccinations?

Yes
38
40%
No
54
56%
no coment
4
4%
 
Total votes: 96
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phuketrichard
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Re: Do you agree with mandatory vaccinations

Post by phuketrichard »

Kammekor wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 9:18 pm
phuketrichard wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 8:32 pm

a very slippery slope ur headed for with these ideas
playing god and saying this life is worth more than the other>>>

Ever been in an emergency room? Gun shot robbers, wounded gangbangers, kids wounded in a drive by, thieves, overdoses, hit & run victims etc etc are all given the same quality service/care as a 70 year old heart attack person.
This is not about what life is worth more, but what to do if all beds are filled up with covid patients and new patients show up? It's called triage.
OK, we move patients to other hospitals, but what if those are filled up too?
You seem to think resources in healthcare are unlimited, but they aren't, and in some places of the world demand has been higher than what's on offer and triage already had to be applied. Mostly pre-vaccin.

Now there are vaccines. And they might have to triage again.
Then what?
emergency rooms treat those that come in as they come in, YES they triage some, ( those that have very little chance of recovery are not treated first, especially say in a mass shooting, train, plane accident)

When hospitals fill up ( example 9/11) patients are moved to the closest hospital and so forth

Do you think if 2 covid patients come in, both needing to be put on a ventilator, 1 vaccinated, one not....only 1 ventilator . they will take the vaccinated one first? Tough call, i'd hate to be that dr.

Guess most if use will agree we cant all agree on this
So really, it is your body/health, and everyone should put some serious thought into it. It would even be different if this vaccine was in an effort to eradicate Covid, but that's not even the goal (right now, at least), and definitely weird to have to protect the vaccinated from the unvaccinated by vaccinating them
THIS:

IF it eradicated the virus, i think 90% that voted no, would change their votes, I would,
BUT the vaccine doesn't!!!

AS to stats:
my brother is head of the sociological dept at a university
always told me stats dont lie
BUT they cant be manipulated>
thats what the governments do
Last edited by phuketrichard on Sat Sep 18, 2021 11:11 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Clutch Cargo
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Re: Do you agree with mandatory vaccinations

Post by Clutch Cargo »

Because I chose to get vaccinated doesn't mean I trusted the Pentagon reporting.
I'm sure a low death rate is great consolation to the families of the 658k and counting dead in the US.
I never understood why there was ever a stat that looked at the ratio of number of covid deaths/number of covid infections.

Unless you mandated the whole population to be tested and strictly enforced that, then to my mind the number of infections was never going to be reliable/robust stat. Some people don't want to be tested, some see no need for it and testing is not always 100% accurate I think with false positives/negatives. Really a skewed stat that has caused a lot of harm IMHO.

Then you've got the stat on number of hospitalisations but as GM pointed out, there seems to be some people going there that didn't really need to go there. I guess there's maybe a tendency for those that find they have covid, even with let's say mild symptoms, to maybe go to hospital fearing the worst ie that the virus effects will worsen quickly and the best place to be in that case is in hospital. I'm just speculating on that as I don't really know. But again, potentially a flawed stat if it includes a number that didn't need to go to hospital.

To my mind the more meaningful stat is the number of deaths caused by covid ie the number of people that otherwise would be alive if they hadn't of caught covid. Or, a similar stat ie the % of number of covid deaths/total population. However, some will dispute this stat even on the basis of: was it a covid death or not? So there is an issue around what is correctly counted as a covid death. In my book, if catching covid was the trigger for someone's death, then it's a covid death. But then others will say they died of pre-existing morbidities eg heart failure due to obesity and not caused by covid.

So I guess they are all indicators of how things are going but not necessarily very robust and reliable. And of course there's always the 'there are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies and statistics' but wait, who said that.. Mark Twain or Benjamin Disraeli? :mrgreen:
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timmydownawell
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Re: Do you agree with mandatory vaccinations

Post by timmydownawell »

clutchcargo wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 11:01 am
To my mind the more meaningful stat is the number of deaths caused by covid ie the number of people that otherwise would be alive if they hadn't of caught covid. Or, a similar stat ie the % of number of covid deaths/total population. However, some will dispute this stat even on the basis of: was it a covid death or not? So there is an issue around what is correctly counted as a covid death. In my book, if catching covid was the trigger for someone's death, then it's a covid death. But then others will say they died of pre-existing morbidities eg heart failure due to obesity and not caused by covid.
Would be interesting to see the average monthly deaths of the past 10 years charted, and see what the overall bump looks like since the start of 2020. Both for individual countries and globally. This would say more than "official" figures and eliminate any (specific) questions as to whether someone died of Covid or obesity or a combination of both.

Similarly, I'm curious if there's been an increase of births since last October, not just due to lockdowns but also because of people being out of work and staying home more.
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Re: Do you agree with mandatory vaccinations

Post by TWY »

violet wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 3:46 am
TWY wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 7:30 pm
clutchcargo wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 6:10 pm Isn't there a fundamental difference comparing things like smoking, obesity and drug use vs covid? You can't 'infect' someone else with it with the former. Self abuse vs a pandemic. Chalk and cheese.
The post I replied to originally wasn't about spreading the virus to others. It was about not providing health care to those that choose not to get the vaccine.

I would agree there is more likelihood of external negative consequences to others with Covid. I'd also point out that there are negative external consequences for the children of people that don't exercise, the family members of drug users, etc etc.

I believe everyone that can get a vaccine should. It is unfortunate that we've had terrible leadership from both our political leaders and our public health leaders. After all, fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me. Remember "Don't wear a mask!"? Makes it much easier for people to tell themselves they'll continue to be careful and not get the vaccine.

Separately, are we going to mandate booster shots? My parents are fully vaccinate - they are both quite elderly. Their doctor has recommended that my father get a booster shot. He's recommended my mother wait as she had moderate side effects from the initial vaccine - and modify her behavior while waiting. Additionally, he's told her not to get a flu shot this year if she gets the vaccine booster later this year. Should she be mandated to get the booster? And how about the next booster?

IMO, the horse has left the barn. Any vaccine mandate needed to be implemented up front with clear messaging.
I’d get a second opinion on everything the doctor says.
Well, this afternoon it certainly looks like the doctor might be on to something? FDA panel rejects third shot for general population, only for 65+ and other high risk. I certainly don't know how/why they came to that decision but it indicates that my mother's doctor might be on the ball so to speak. The panel said "its likely beneficial for the elderly". LIKELY. That doesn't sound so definitive to me.

Perhaps her doctor feels its LIKELY beneficial to her but having the negative reactions to the vaccine is LIKELY not good for her health either and its better to wait some more time before enduring that again. Where should the mandate be? Should the national guard be storming my parents home to inject? Does she need to register with some government entity to get a special card allowing her to live for 3 or 6 months without the booster? Should she be given an ankle monitor to wear so the government can confirm she hasn't left the house or gone anywhere that she might potentially infect others?

Yes, that is all facetious. But its also a very simple example of someone that is listening to their doctor that would either be forced to get a shot (against their doctor's recommendation) or excluded from society.
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violet
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Re: Do you agree with mandatory vaccinations

Post by violet »

The doctor said not to have the flu jab if having the booster. From your post, he wasn’t saying don’t have the booster

Maybe he was being overly cautious because she had some side effects from the covid jab. Has she had flu jabs before? Any reaction?

No need to answer me just things to consider
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Re: Do you agree with mandatory vaccinations

Post by TWY »

violet wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 1:54 pm The doctor said not to have the flu jab if having the booster. From your post, he wasn’t saying don’t have the booster

Maybe he was being overly cautious because she had some side effects from the covid jab. Has she had flu jabs before? Any reaction?

No need to answer me just things to consider
He's told her to delay getting the booster until closer to a year from the initial shot. And yes, she usually had mild reactions to perhaps moderate reactions to the flu shot depending on the year (she gets one every year). She had what would be described a mild reaction to the first shot but something more than moderate reaction to the 2nd shot of Covid.

My parents have had the same doctor for the past 15 or so years after their longtime doctor retired.

I shared the information just to show how the idea of a vaccine mandate is not quite as simple as its advocates make it out to be. Both of my parents got the vaccine as soon as it was available to them in their community. Both listen to their doctor. One is being told to get a booster and one is being told to wait. I don't view their doctor as some quack or some type of anti vaccine nutjob. In fact, he told both my parents to continue to wear masks when indoors in public back when they were initially vaccinated and to remain cautious if there were more local outbreaks. But for the next several months one of my parents is "following the FDA's version of science" and one isn't. And while I realize I'm biased, I don't view her a public enemy #1 for listening to her doctor and not getting the booster per the FDA's schedule.
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Clutch Cargo
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Re: Do you agree with mandatory vaccinations

Post by Clutch Cargo »

Seems to me that some folks are focusing on the possible side effects, the insufficient time to properly test these vaccines and the fact that it doesn't stop transmission/infection (albeit studies show it does by 50%). All valid concerns and arguments.

OTOH of course those that choose not to vaccinate or delay doing so until more is known, do in the meantime (depending on what other precautions are taken) run the potential risk of infection and in turn, potential hospitalisation, long covid or death.
post512735.html#p512735

A difficult decision for sure weighing up those risks for some. Needless to say perhaps that will depend on individual circumstances. Personally, I do believe one also has to consider not just themselves but the community they live in. For me, being over 60, with covid all around in PP and the lack of high standard hospital care, it was a no brainer to get the jab. I also want to minimise infecting my partner who has an unvaccinated mother (as advised by her doctor) that she could pass it on to. Yet, of course I'm uncertain about the effectiveness of the Sinovacs and the lack of transparency from the PRC re adequate testing. So for me, I made an assessment (rightly or wrongly) of the likely risk to life vs side effects vs hospitalisation vs infection.

Hence I think this poll shows how members are split nearly equally on this. Bearing in mind I think an option of 'Mandatory (with exceptions)' probably would have increased the 'yes' vote. Also I think it's important to note that those who said 'No' doesn't necessarily mean they are anti-vax for covid. It is probably the principle.. they don't want to be told to take it, yet will nevertheless choose to do so of their own volition. Just my thoughts.
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Re: Do you agree with mandatory vaccinations

Post by Freightdog »

clutchcargo wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 2:50 pm
A difficult decision for sure weighing up those risks for some. Needless to say perhaps that will depend on individual circumstances. Personally, I do believe one also has to consider not just themselves but the community they live in. For me, being over 60, with covid all around in PP and the lack of high standard hospital care, it was a no brainer to get the jab. I also want to minimise infecting my partner who has an unvaccinated mother (as advised by her doctor) that she could pass it on to. Yet, of course I'm uncertain about the effectiveness of the Sinovacs and the lack of transparency from the PRC re adequate testing. So for me, I made an assessment (rightly or wrongly) of the likely risk to life vs side effects vs hospitalisation vs infection.
It’s something that should be done all the time, but far too many people that I know, both in Asia and in Europe, blindly follow or openly reject, with little real attempt to actually think it through. On many matters, not just about Covid.
Based on the information presented, generally we all can only make a best guess decision.
It is probably the principle.. they don't want to be told to take it, yet will nevertheless choose to do so of their own volition. Just my thoughts.
Without it necessarily being conspiracy theory style response, the manner in which the whole thing has been handled in many countries lends itself to some distrust of the system. A natural response may well be rejection. Especially for those whose lives have already been overturned as a side effect of a virus that never directly affected them.
It’s almost natural- being pushed just one more step too far?
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Re: Do you agree with mandatory vaccinations

Post by nerdlinger »

General Mackevili wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 5:13 am
nerdlinger wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 3:01 am The official advice changed based on further research into something that was new and unknown.
Agreed, but they were wrong then (according to they themselves) and giving bad advice, even laughing at people as 'paranoid' who thought you should mask up, and telling people not to, so anyone believing them was wrong.

So the question is, how are people so willing to trust him now, even after they've been factually wrong before? Isn't it logical to assume that they 'might' be giving bad advice at present, and if so, that we won't find out until later on, just like before?

I'm not arguing that they ARE wrong now, I'm just trying to come to a logical understanding of why people are currently labeled 'STUPID' if they don't believe them on everything they're pushing right now at this moment.
See I don’t think anyone is being called stupid for being sceptical. Nobody who’s reading through Lancet studies and compiling their own Cochrane charts to verify that the science matches policy is being called stupid.

They’re being called stupid when their response is to then for a patently rubbish source of information that happens to agree with whatever they want to be true or feel like could be true or is the opposite of whatever they think the opposing political party say.

They’re being called stupid if they refuse to do anything all the medical communities of the world recommend but will happily down every pill that a YouTube channel tells them to.

They’re being called stupid if their chain of logic is “you said masks weren’t necessary and then you said they were so I’m gonna choose to believe the first thing you said cause that’s what suits me best, and if anyone dies as a result of my actions then fuckem it’s your fault.”

There’s way too much handwringing in the service of making stupid people feel better about making stupid and dangerous choices, instead of educating them.
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Re: Do you agree with mandatory vaccinations

Post by Railroad »

nerdlinger wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 4:30 pm
They’re being called stupid if their chain of logic is “you said masks weren’t necessary and then you said they were so I’m gonna choose to believe the first thing you said cause that’s what suits me best, and if anyone dies as a result of my actions then fuckem it’s your fault.”
Well, this is my 'chain of logic', but I'm not stupid.

Selfish, puttin' oneself first, not public-spirited, uncharitable....yeah, yeah.
But labeling everyone what doesn't slavishly follow the common wisdom as "stupid".
That's a 'no'. :no:
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