We've seen this before. In the UK, one of the murderers of Lee Rigby was known to MI6. They knew the guy was moving towards extremism, yet he still managed to brutally murder a young soldier.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/c ... 93247.html

atst wrote: ↑Sun Sep 05, 2021 10:09 am From the news reports he isn't the only one that is needing 24hr monitoring buy armed police ( when normal police don't carry arms in nz). I do feel frustrated and am not alone when our freedoms hinder law enforcement to protect public from such people, it's a fine line though locking someone up because they may do something.

That's the thing with freedoms, they're obviously important but at the same time there are situations where it gets tricky.

A couple of years ago we had a couple of right wing speakers wanting to hold events in NZ to talk about their beliefs - they're apparantly very influential in white supremacy circles. It caused a stink at the time, the government didn't want them here because it could stir up the wrong people, encourage race hate etc but at the same time others were saying everyone should be free to say anything they want. In the end local councils refused to rent premises to them and there was the predictible talk of communism, freedoms being taken away etc.

I remember reading about a Muslim cleric, in London I think. From memory he was accused of radicalising vulnerable guys which would obviously be something nobody wants in society and someone doing that is dangerous - but when they argue freedom of speech and say things like 'I was just voicing my opinion, I never said to stab all those people'... and he probably doesn't in so many words but then you don't need to, there are plenty of ways for a good speaker to wind up a psycho - it's a no win situation.

The cops must come up against situations every day where they know damn well people are up to no good and looking for a house to burgle or whatever but there's nothing they can do until the crime is actually committed and there's no crime in walking down a street looking for houses with open windows and nobody home, even if you are a known burglar.

UK - Far Right Terror, "30% of UK terror plots disrupted by MI5 were far right, says MI5 chief"
UK - Islamic Terror, largest group
UK - Far Left Terror, "Whitehall sources emphasised that the left-wing anarchist threat was a “tiny fraction” of cases compared with Islamist and far-right extremism."

1/ In USA, far right terror is the largest by far
2/ Islamic next
3/ Far Left - barely rates

NZ
1/ White Australian nationalist kills - 51 dead
2/ Islamic - zero except a couple of certifiable lunatic individuals. Zero deaths.
3/ Far Left - zero

LOL. Where's ANTIFA?
Ah.. c'mon.. all that hard work for barely a mention.
I'll have to redouble my efforts with throwing tomatoes

SternAAlbifrons wrote: ↑Mon Sep 06, 2021 6:33 pm 1/ In USA, far right terror is the largest by far

This is quite laughable.
Biden and the FBI have repeatedly spoken of the "white supremacy terror threat", but it is simply not true.

2020 saw a 25% increase in murder. 2021, mass shootings have been disturbingly frequent. Check the numbers and locations. Not really "far right" territory.

IraHayes wrote: ↑Mon Sep 06, 2021 7:54 pm

SternAAlbifrons wrote: ↑Mon Sep 06, 2021 6:33 pm "30% of UK terror plots disrupted by MI5 were far right, says MI5 chief"

And I am left wondering which groups made up the remaining 70%.

Yeah, me too.
This piece mainly details Far Right terror activities in the UK, but it also gives this historical perspective..

The threat landscape in the United Kingdom has evolved considerably over the past several decades. While in the 1980s and 1990s the UK was primarily concerned with terrorism perpetrated by ethno-nationalist groups like the Provisional Irish Republican Army (PIRA), by the late 1990s the conflict wound down. However, soon after, the threat posed by Salafi-jihadists surged to the forefront of security concerns, and on July 7, 2005, several British jihadists inspired by al-Qaeda launched deadly attacks throughout London. In 2021, the United Kingdom faces a multitude of threats, with jihadist ideology still a significant motivator of terrorism.
Far-right violent extremism and the growth of white supremacy extremism throughout the country have, however, attracted increased concern. In November 2020, Metropolitan Police Assistant Commissioner Neil Basu said that far-right violent extremism is the fastest growing threat in the UK.
COVID-19 lockdowns and related isolation have further exacerbated the threat...

^^ MAY 10, 2021
IntelBrief: Arrests of Far-Right Violent Extremists in UK Highlight Scale of the Threat
https://thesoufancenter.org/intelbrief-2021-may-10/

Note the COVID reference at the end of that quote. ('trying to swing it back to NZ here)
I am convinced the Far Right is now spreading thru various "anti-lockdown" and "anti-vax" groups. I see it quite clearly.
That is a bit of a worry in NZ and Au because the racists just don't get much traction here. It is right against the national and personal ethos for the vast majority.
(NB - Australia has one of the most diverse populations on the planet, so you can't say they don't know what they are talking about. They just truly believe in "a fair go" for all)

BUT, Kiwis and Aussies get very very upset when you tell them they can't go to the pub.
Believe it or not, the Nazis et al are getting some traction with that.

Heil

Big Daikon wrote: ↑Mon Sep 06, 2021 8:28 pm

SternAAlbifrons wrote: ↑Mon Sep 06, 2021 6:33 pm 1/ In USA, far right terror is the largest by far

This is quite laughable.
Biden and the FBI have repeatedly spoken of the "white supremacy terror threat", but it is simply not true.

2020 saw a 25% increase in murder. 2021, mass shootings have been disturbingly frequent. Check the numbers and locations. Not really "far right" territory.

I'm not trying to go too far down the US rabbit hole because because it's not something I know a lot about but just a thought...

That graph shows murder statistics. Wouldn't that be mostly comprised of things like gang violence, drunken fights,drug turf wars, road rage etc - the usual reasons people get murdered? There's nothing saying who committed the violence - just because a city leans left doesn't mean every single person in that city does and there's nothing on the graph suggesting that violence was inspired by political / ideological beliefs which would make it terrorism. It's just the number of people murdered.

I got curious so googled it and lots of stuff popped up, mostly saying the same thing as this....

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... error-2020

"White supremacists behind majority of US domestic terror attacks in 2020"

"White supremacists and other rightwing extremists have been responsible for 67% of domestic terror attacks and plots so far this year, with at least half of that violence targeting protesters, according to a new analysis from a centrist thinktank.

The report found only a single deadly “far-left” attack in 2020, the shooting of Aaron Danielson, a rightwing activist, by a self-described “anti-fascist” during a protest in Portland this August. Experts on extremism said this was the first killing linked to an anti-fascist in the United States in 25 years.

Violent rightwing actors were responsible for 41 politically motivated attacks and plots this year, while “far-left” actors were responsible for 12, according to analysts at the Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS), who have assembled a database of domestic terror attacks going back to 1994."

That Guardian article is rather misleading. It includes a couple cases of self-defense (one confirmed, one legally pending) in the "white supremacist terrorism" category.

If we define terrorism as actions which inflict terror, then the "mostly peaceful" protests of 2020 would qualify.

Also, check out a group of Americans who commit over half the murders.

LOL

I admire a man who keeps trying to paddle shit uphill, D.
I've done it myself all my life.

Sorry, mate. it's no contest on this one. Throw out the Guardian, throw out Random and me. you don't need us
- go straight to every police, security and intell agency in your own country. They will tell you the same re Far Right terror in the USA.

Terrorism is not the same as murder.
It is also not "whatever causes terror" (we westerners do that to innocent villages all over the world every day).

PS, Robust protests and demonstrations like BLM, are not 'Terrorism' either. They are guaranteed in your constitution - it is called Democracy.
I am on record for saying even the Capital Hill depredations were not insurrection - just a good vigorous demo that got a bit out of hand.
The protesters won that round because the cops couldn't defend their perimeter. All within the ground rules, i reckon. (until somebody pulled out the guns!!)
ffs - i first tried to storm the USA consulate in central CBD Sydney in 1971 when Nixon was bombing Cambodia - and a few times since. If we had managed to get in, you probably would have seen me sitting in the Consul Generals chair wearing a coon skin cap too.

Note to Random - If you want to win an argument on CEO Never quote the Guardian here, Brother.
lol. I can promise you from bitter experience - right or wrong - it won't help your case. Ever.

Anyway, at least we are still throwing tomatoes, and only a moderate amount of blood is spilling down our streets, here on CEO.

V.
.

SternAAlbifrons wrote: ↑Tue Sep 07, 2021 6:09 am LOL

I admire a man who keeps trying to paddle shit uphill, D.
I've done it myself all my life.


PS, Robust protests and demonstrations like BLM, are not 'Terrorism' either. They are guaranteed in your constitution - it is called Democracy.

Sorry for the delay. Actually had to teach this morning.

Yes, I find it challenging and at times ridiculous arguing with zealots and true believers. Still, it can be educational and entertaining.

The Constitution permits us to assemble and speak. Not to loot and torch buildings. Throwing bricks at cops also seems a bit illegal to me. But hey "robust protests" and such.

Plus, the actions of BLM/anarchists are quite ideological in nature, so the word terrorism seems to fit here.

PS: If you and I ever meet up in person, let's talk about something-anything-else.