america's involvement in Afghanistan closes

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Big Daikon
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Re: america's involvement in Afghanistan closes

Post by Big Daikon »

nemo wrote: Fri Aug 27, 2021 3:16 pm
I honestly think we are watching the decline of the US in real-time. Speaking both domestically and globally. From the low-grade civil war we saw last year to the withdrawal from Afghanistan right now, it is hard to take the US seriously.
Perhaps you missed how much money was made by BAE, Lockheed, et al during the past 20 years.
That was the reason for the forever war.
Like the USA prison industry, it became a self perpetuating ecosystem.
Yeah, I get it. Not a fan of the more psychopathic forms of capitalism in play right now.
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Re: america's involvement in Afghanistan closes

Post by xandreu »

Apollo91881 wrote: Fri Aug 27, 2021 3:12 pm
xandreu wrote: Fri Aug 27, 2021 3:09 pm I'm coming to the conclusion that there must be something else going on behind the scenes to account for the way this is all unfolding. Even if Biden is a deranged pensioner, he doesn't run the show alone. He has many top advisors and military top brass who would be hugely influential in the decision making and advising him every step of the way.

Whether you like the USA or not, support their foreign policies or not, I don't think anyone could have ever imagined that they would retreat from Afghanistan in this way. It's just not the way the USA do things. I have no experience in this field whatsoever, but even I could have come up with a better withdrawal plan than that - 1 - Evacuate all those eligible to be evacuated. 2- Remove all armoury and weaponry. 3- Destroy your bases. 4 - Evacuate the military. I know I make it sound easier than it probably is, but as a rough plan, that's how most of us would have imagined it would have gone. The US seems to simply want to withdraw as fast as possible, with little to no regard for the billions of dollars of weaponry left behind, and seemingly no dialogue whatsoever with the allied forces that have been there supporting them for the past 20 years.

I keep up with what's going through UK media and there is a lot of anger in the UK right now against the US, with many saying that this should be the last time we blindly follow the US into military action - none of the supporting allied forces can stay in Afghanistan without the support of the US military. It would be a suicide mission. Boris Johnson has been more openly critical of a US president lately than any prime minister I can remember. The US is not only turning its back on Afghanistan, it's turning its back on some of its closest allies. And it just doesn't seem to care.

Which brings me back to why I think there must be something else going on behind the scenes. Does the Taiban have some kind of hold over the US? Has something happened whereby they now pose such a threat that the only choice is to bow down to the them? Do they have photos of Joe Biden in compromising positions with underage girls? Who knows? But there simply must be more to the story than we're being fed.

It just doesn't make sense otherwise.
For much of that, I think you have to assume the US was going to handover bases and equipment to the Afghan Army like equipment and bases were handed over in Iraq. I think they assumed the ARMY would put up some sort of fight.
Yes, this is true. But even that, I find suspicious.

The fact that the Afghan army put up little to no resistance and the ease at which the Taliban were able to take back control means that it would have been obvious to the forces there that the Afghan army simply weren't capable of taking over the security situation. If the Afghan army had put up a fight and fought for several months before giving in, that would be a different story, but the fact that there was little to no resistance from the very start means that the allied forces would have known this would happen. It would have comes as no surprise to anyone.

Again, it just doesn't add up...
The difference between animals and humans is that animals would never allow the dumb ones to lead the pack.
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Re: america's involvement in Afghanistan closes

Post by Big Daikon »

Apollo91881 wrote: Fri Aug 27, 2021 3:10 pm]
Definitely! A large portion of the US is gravitating toward populism and the schism is happening between rural and urban communities.
We haven't even touched the real mayhem that can happen.
I lean towards populism myself. (Sanders was my second choice in 2016.)

What I see in the US now is a very hostile elite that is not only disconnected but hostile to the general citizenry. Not a good look for the "Land of the Free".

I've noticed that both Russia and China have been dunking on the US lately. Strange times.
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Re: america's involvement in Afghanistan closes

Post by Apollo91881 »

xandreu wrote: Fri Aug 27, 2021 3:23 pm
Apollo91881 wrote: Fri Aug 27, 2021 3:12 pm
xandreu wrote: Fri Aug 27, 2021 3:09 pm I'm coming to the conclusion that there must be something else going on behind the scenes to account for the way this is all unfolding. Even if Biden is a deranged pensioner, he doesn't run the show alone. He has many top advisors and military top brass who would be hugely influential in the decision making and advising him every step of the way.

Whether you like the USA or not, support their foreign policies or not, I don't think anyone could have ever imagined that they would retreat from Afghanistan in this way. It's just not the way the USA do things. I have no experience in this field whatsoever, but even I could have come up with a better withdrawal plan than that - 1 - Evacuate all those eligible to be evacuated. 2- Remove all armoury and weaponry. 3- Destroy your bases. 4 - Evacuate the military. I know I make it sound easier than it probably is, but as a rough plan, that's how most of us would have imagined it would have gone. The US seems to simply want to withdraw as fast as possible, with little to no regard for the billions of dollars of weaponry left behind, and seemingly no dialogue whatsoever with the allied forces that have been there supporting them for the past 20 years.

I keep up with what's going through UK media and there is a lot of anger in the UK right now against the US, with many saying that this should be the last time we blindly follow the US into military action - none of the supporting allied forces can stay in Afghanistan without the support of the US military. It would be a suicide mission. Boris Johnson has been more openly critical of a US president lately than any prime minister I can remember. The US is not only turning its back on Afghanistan, it's turning its back on some of its closest allies. And it just doesn't seem to care.

Which brings me back to why I think there must be something else going on behind the scenes. Does the Taiban have some kind of hold over the US? Has something happened whereby they now pose such a threat that the only choice is to bow down to the them? Do they have photos of Joe Biden in compromising positions with underage girls? Who knows? But there simply must be more to the story than we're being fed.

It just doesn't make sense otherwise.
For much of that, I think you have to assume the US was going to handover bases and equipment to the Afghan Army like equipment and bases were handed over in Iraq. I think they assumed the ARMY would put up some sort of fight.
Yes, this is true. But even that, I find suspicious.

The fact that the Afghan army put up little to no resistance and the ease at which the Taliban were able to take back control means that it would have been obvious to the forces there that the Afghan army simply weren't capable of taking over the security situation. If the Afghan army had put up a fight and fought for several months before giving in, that would be a different story, but the fact that there was little to no resistance from the very start means that the allied forces would have known this would happen. It would have comes as no surprise to anyone.

Again, it just doesn't add up...
Having been on the ground and embedded to train forces, this makes perfect sense.
Nobody gets a good eval without results and generals needed to keep showing progress in Afghanistan.
The system was built on fluff and to keep the new weapons and money flowing.
These tribal cultures operate on connections and family structures.
The ARMY is a function of the state.
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Re: america's involvement in Afghanistan closes

Post by nemo »

If they will not defend their own country and instead welcome a mob of fanatics to rule over them, I don't give many fucks.
How much more money needs to be wasted on them?
Let China be their BFF and help them with their Uighur issues.
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Re: america's involvement in Afghanistan closes

Post by Apollo91881 »

Big Daikon wrote: Fri Aug 27, 2021 3:28 pm
Apollo91881 wrote: Fri Aug 27, 2021 3:10 pm]
Definitely! A large portion of the US is gravitating toward populism and the schism is happening between rural and urban communities.
We haven't even touched the real mayhem that can happen.
I lean towards populism myself. (Sanders was my second choice in 2016.)

What I see in the US now is a very hostile elite that is not only disconnected but hostile to the general citizenry. Not a good look for the "Land of the Free".

I've noticed that both Russia and China have been dunking on the US lately. Strange times.
I meant fascism, though just like Brazil it has populist undertones. Trump was a populist, appealing to the "ordinary man" but with policies that benefited the elites and wealthy to a great extent. I wanted Sanders too and I'm not thrilled about the party in charge now, but still consider it an improvement over the chaos of the last 4 years. They will just get stuck in mediocrity.

I don't see a hostile elite. I see a misinformation machine creating alternate realities with cultish followership on the large scale. This prevents activity for the common good, that a country should be united behind. People confuse land of the free as being free from responsibilities too.

My 2 cents anyway.
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Re: america's involvement in Afghanistan closes

Post by Clutch Cargo »

Apollo91881 wrote: Fri Aug 27, 2021 3:30 pm
xandreu wrote: Fri Aug 27, 2021 3:23 pm
Apollo91881 wrote: Fri Aug 27, 2021 3:12 pm
xandreu wrote: Fri Aug 27, 2021 3:09 pm I'm coming to the conclusion that there must be something else going on behind the scenes to account for the way this is all unfolding. Even if Biden is a deranged pensioner, he doesn't run the show alone. He has many top advisors and military top brass who would be hugely influential in the decision making and advising him every step of the way.

Whether you like the USA or not, support their foreign policies or not, I don't think anyone could have ever imagined that they would retreat from Afghanistan in this way. It's just not the way the USA do things. I have no experience in this field whatsoever, but even I could have come up with a better withdrawal plan than that - 1 - Evacuate all those eligible to be evacuated. 2- Remove all armoury and weaponry. 3- Destroy your bases. 4 - Evacuate the military. I know I make it sound easier than it probably is, but as a rough plan, that's how most of us would have imagined it would have gone. The US seems to simply want to withdraw as fast as possible, with little to no regard for the billions of dollars of weaponry left behind, and seemingly no dialogue whatsoever with the allied forces that have been there supporting them for the past 20 years.

I keep up with what's going through UK media and there is a lot of anger in the UK right now against the US, with many saying that this should be the last time we blindly follow the US into military action - none of the supporting allied forces can stay in Afghanistan without the support of the US military. It would be a suicide mission. Boris Johnson has been more openly critical of a US president lately than any prime minister I can remember. The US is not only turning its back on Afghanistan, it's turning its back on some of its closest allies. And it just doesn't seem to care.

Which brings me back to why I think there must be something else going on behind the scenes. Does the Taiban have some kind of hold over the US? Has something happened whereby they now pose such a threat that the only choice is to bow down to the them? Do they have photos of Joe Biden in compromising positions with underage girls? Who knows? But there simply must be more to the story than we're being fed.

It just doesn't make sense otherwise.
For much of that, I think you have to assume the US was going to handover bases and equipment to the Afghan Army like equipment and bases were handed over in Iraq. I think they assumed the ARMY would put up some sort of fight.
Yes, this is true. But even that, I find suspicious.

The fact that the Afghan army put up little to no resistance and the ease at which the Taliban were able to take back control means that it would have been obvious to the forces there that the Afghan army simply weren't capable of taking over the security situation. If the Afghan army had put up a fight and fought for several months before giving in, that would be a different story, but the fact that there was little to no resistance from the very start means that the allied forces would have known this would happen. It would have comes as no surprise to anyone.

Again, it just doesn't add up...
Having been on the ground and embedded to train forces, this makes perfect sense.
Nobody gets a good eval without results and generals needed to keep showing progress in Afghanistan.
The system was built on fluff and to keep the new weapons and money flowing.
These tribal cultures operate on connections and family structures.
The ARMY is a function of the state.
Wow, this is disturbing.

I was thinking along the lines of xandreu too in that there must be a hidden agenda behind this, or, the US was just incredibly out of touch with what the Afghan military capability is.

So, you're saying the generals knew exactly what the situation was ie the Afghan army could/would not fight the Taliban and they (the generals) had been just prolonging their existence over there? That, if correct, makes more logical sense to me as an explanation. However, I think it also paints a very poor picture of the role of military and defence suppliers as self serving war mongers.
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Re: america's involvement in Afghanistan closes

Post by Big Daikon »

Apollo91881 wrote: Fri Aug 27, 2021 3:44 pm I don't see a hostile elite. I see a misinformation machine creating alternate realities with cultish followership on the large scale. This prevents activity for the common good, that a country should be united behind. People confuse land of the free as being free from responsibilities too.

My 2 cents anyway.
1. The US in its current state is too heterogeneous to unite on much of anything.
2. The elite support unpopular things such as stupid wars, increased racial tension/conflict and mass immigration. These things are not supported by large chunks of the nation.
3. The elites promote this for their benefit and at the expense of the nation.

Thus, we have a hostile elite. Also, the US is an oligarchy. In essence, a third world nation.
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Re: america's involvement in Afghanistan closes

Post by SternAAlbifrons »

nemo wrote: Fri Aug 27, 2021 3:38 pm If they will not defend their own country and instead welcome a mob of fanatics to rule over them...
My feeling is that most Afghanis probably did not think fighting under white men for the Allied installed corrupt Government was "defending their country".
Maybe they are not welcoming a mob of fanatics, but have just been overrun by the inevitable results of our Fuck Up. ??
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Re: america's involvement in Afghanistan closes

Post by SternAAlbifrons »

One miracle out of all this, on a personal level. I don't have to keep feeling like Robinson Crusoe alerting the world to the dangers of following US hubris into defeat after defeat after defeat. And then being astonished by the lack of response except being labelled an America Hater.

Now that the whole world is suddenly singing the same song in perfect harmony, because i am a contrarian :mrgreen: , you might see me singing praises about the America's good points more often. There is a shit-load of them.

I really hope they can get their act together, but as some of the fab discussion above indicates - there is a lot of work to be done.
I can't say i am optimistic but they will have my fierce support with that.

One message - DON'T keep ignoring your allies - we are your friends.
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