Deadbeats or victims with legitimate grievances?

Yeah, that place out 'there'. Anything not really Cambodia related should go here.
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Re: Deadbeats or victims with legitimate grievances?

Post by Anchor Moy » Tue Apr 14, 2015 8:45 pm

StroppyChops wrote:
OrangeDragon wrote:A big step in the right direction would be to limit degree programs to employable fields, which are easily obtained and made available to schools regularly for guidance concealing. If i want a loan to invest in a business, I have to show a plan to pay it back. The same should go for a loan to invest in an education.
Agreed - although depending on which political party is currently in power this does happen in Oz. One party seems to like filling the need for doctors, engineers, accountants etc. and the other thinks we need more arts and humanities graduates - the more alternative, or Feminist, or alternative Feminist Lesbian, the better.
I would have thought that any country (whatever country)as a whole will be better off with a more educated population.
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Re: Deadbeats or victims with legitimate grievances?

Post by StroppyChops » Tue Apr 14, 2015 9:32 pm

Anchor Moy wrote:
StroppyChops wrote:
OrangeDragon wrote:A big step in the right direction would be to limit degree programs to employable fields, which are easily obtained and made available to schools regularly for guidance concealing. If i want a loan to invest in a business, I have to show a plan to pay it back. The same should go for a loan to invest in an education.
Agreed - although depending on which political party is currently in power this does happen in Oz. One party seems to like filling the need for doctors, engineers, accountants etc. and the other thinks we need more arts and humanities graduates - the more alternative, or Feminist, or alternative Feminist Lesbian, the better.
I would have thought that any country (whatever country)as a whole will be better off with a more educated population.
Sure, but it's a very delicate balance creating - three to eight years in advance - just the right number of doctors, builders, and artists for the needs of the country.
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Re: Deadbeats or victims with legitimate grievances?

Post by Soi Dog » Tue Apr 14, 2015 9:33 pm

Anchor Moy wrote: I would have thought that any country (whatever country)as a whole will be better off with a more educated population.
Probably, but I don't want to pay for other people's higher education through even higher taxes. I work nearly half the year as it is just for taxes. If someone wants to study comparative literature of French art history for 4+ years, they should absolutely do so...and pay for it themselves.
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Re: Deadbeats or victims with legitimate grievances?

Post by StroppyChops » Tue Apr 14, 2015 9:41 pm

Soi Dog wrote:
Anchor Moy wrote: I would have thought that any country (whatever country)as a whole will be better off with a more educated population.
Probably, but I don't want to pay for other people's higher education through even higher taxes. I work nearly half the year as it is just for taxes. If someone wants to study comparative literature of French art history for 4+ years, they should absolutely do so...and pay for it themselves.
Hear hear.

We paid upfront for my science degree and masters while both working full time - and it's difficult to care when I hear whining about being straddled with a student loan. No-one is forced into this, and most countries don't need more artists or sociologists.
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Re: Deadbeats or victims with legitimate grievances?

Post by Username Taken » Tue Apr 14, 2015 9:44 pm

Anchor Moy wrote:I would have thought that any country (whatever country)as a whole will be better off with a more educated population.
In some countries, they seem to like to keep a stock of illiterates. These are required to fill the positions at KTVs, beer gardens, hostess bars, house-maids, security guards (aka parking attendants), etc.

:popcorn:
... give 'em a quick, short, sharp shock ...

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Re: Deadbeats or victims with legitimate grievances?

Post by Anchor Moy » Wed Apr 15, 2015 2:04 am

Username Taken wrote:
Anchor Moy wrote:I would have thought that any country (whatever country)as a whole will be better off with a more educated population.
In some countries, they seem to like to keep a stock of illiterates. These are required to fill the positions at KTVs, beer gardens, hostess bars, house-maids, security guards (aka parking attendants), etc.

:popcorn:
Yeah, I can think of one good example.
And the other illiterates, (who are not up to working in beer gardens etc), can fill the positions in the police, army and civil service. Win win. :thumb:
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Re: Deadbeats or victims with legitimate grievances?

Post by Bitte_Kein_Lexus » Wed Apr 15, 2015 9:34 am

I'd say you guys are being a bit simplistic. I called this fiasco years ago (~2008-2009) and so have countless others. Student debt has been ballooning for years and years in the US and it's spiraled out of control. I'm a firm believer that governments should invest heavily in education. All forms of education: universities, technical schools, trade schools and so on. I'm not a fan of big government, but education if one area where I think the government should be involved. Not necessarily "running" tertiary education institutions, but at the very least providing ample funding. I know this is a very alien concept to many Americans, but one's education shouldn't have to put you in debt for years to come just as you're entering the workforce.

When I hear of people with 40k or even 120k in debt, it blows my mind. I was able to go through debt free. I actually took out a $6000 zero-interest (while studying) government loan so I could make a bit of cash off the interest. I come from an area with a very high taxation rate, but the lowest tuition in the region. Tuition was roughly $3000/year for one of the top universities in the world (ranked top 20-30 regularly). I didn't need the loan as I worked part-time (full-time in the summers) and stayed at my folk's home. I paid it back in full after finishing. I suppose I was lucky to live in a major university city (I could choose from four universities), but still, I probably wouldn't have had that much debt even if I had to live elsewhere. Now you guys have these weird "for profit" universities who's degrees are supposedly quickly becoming worthless. Sure, students should have worked harder in high school and done their research, but allowing such institutions to proliferate unchecked with minimal restrictions or accountability is a bit weird.
When you think about it, It's basically the US version of Cambodia... Diploma factories pumping out clueless "graduates" for cash.

Countries who invest in education get high returns on their investment. South Korea and Singapore are prime examples of essentially under-developed countries turning into regional and world economic powerhouses. When students fight the slow tuition increases, the people who say: "stop whining and get a job" are usually missing the point. If you don't fight, you'll never get anything. The French get that much right... When they protest, they protest... And it yields results.

Sure, studying theater is a bit pointless economically-speaking, but if everyone had money on their mind when choosing a major, then we'd all be unhappy accountants and engineers. The Germans also have a pretty good system in place where "everyone finds their path", although I find it a bit restrictive as from a very young age, your whole future is basically decided for you. Lithuania has an interesting concept: the higher your grades, the less you pay.

Anyways, I essentially believe that yes, people should be held accountable and pay their own way. However, it shouldn't have to cost an arm and a leg to get there. It basically cripples you as you're entering the workforce and starting a different stage in life, with many new responsibilities such as children, a mortgage and so on. I don't think it should be free, as people tend to value things which cost them money. But it shouldn't be prohibitively expensive. Being responsible is one thing, but universities costing $100 000 is laughable at best, and a sign that something is seriously broken in the US's education system at worst.

John Oliver did a nice piece on some of these "for profit" schools (something which I hadn't heard of at the time):
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Re: Deadbeats or victims with legitimate grievances?

Post by Anchor Moy » Wed Apr 15, 2015 2:38 pm

Totally agree with BKL. This in particular:
I'm a firm believer that governments should invest heavily in education.

Now you guys have these weird "for profit" universities who's degrees are supposedly quickly becoming worthless... allowing such institutions to proliferate unchecked with minimal restrictions or accountability is a bit weird.

Countries who invest in education get high returns on their investment.

Anyways, I essentially believe that yes, people should be held accountable and pay their own way. However, it shouldn't have to cost an arm and a leg to get there.
And this is radical - I like it:

Lithuania has an interesting concept: the higher your grades, the less you pay.
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Re: Deadbeats or victims with legitimate grievances?

Post by Mr Curious » Sun Apr 19, 2015 11:58 am

if you ask me the government was a willing and knowledgeable co-conspirator in this scam. I've watched for years as the cost of college rose as did the number of new unproven "schools". Obvious to me it was a SCAM. In a day and time where everyone seems to have a degree or two, yet still can't find work that allows for paying off college loans AND eating, I will say that anyone taking out a loan for even 30,000 to go to Bumfuck U. for "business" (when there are already millions of under employed graduates of same) is a moron. A degree is NOT a guarantee of good employment anymore, has not been for a long time.

The government knows all this, they collect and track all the stats. They did nothing but aid in the deception/scam.
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Re: Deadbeats or victims with legitimate grievances?

Post by vladimir » Mon Apr 20, 2015 6:57 am

One of the problems is half the stuff we learn at school is irrelevant to what we do later in life. How much of what you learned in school has never been used in your life? And very few schools teach life/social skills, usually it's only academics.

I do feel that mainstream primary degree studies should be free if the country can afford it. If the country can't, an independent body should be set up to find out why. If it's because of corruption/bad budgeting, then fix the problem. If it's due to an honest lack of resources, what can you do? but even Cambodia could offer free primary degree education if spending was properly and cleanly monitored.

Some people are concerned that their taxes are spent on educating others, but would they rather have them spent on killing others in a foreign country, perhaps in an unnecessary war which was created for the benefit of a few?
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