Spirituality: Curious about Christianity?

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StroppyChops
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Re: Spirituality: Curious about Christianity?

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LTO wrote:My young visions of the scary version of Hell were set not by Dante but by Hieronymus Bosch whose work was on loan to the DIA when I was a kid. When taken to the museum I used to sit and stare at Bosch's triptych 'The Garden of Earthly Delights,' specifically the third panel which depicted Hell. Never believed it but it gave me nightmares nonetheless. Far creepier than lakes of burning sulfur IMO. But in church we were never taught that Hell was like this or Dante's brimstone. We were taught that Hell was simply being separated from God, wherever that may be.
Spoiler:
Image

And while on the subject of Dante, Bosch and Renaissance visions of the Devil and Hell (granted Dante was very very early Renaissance, if at all), I prefer the much later Milton. In fact, one of the most famous passages from Milton's Paradise Lost I think also describes the expat condition pretty well, at least for some expats.

At this point in the story, Lucifer's rebellion against God has failed (a rebellion that was sparked by Lucifer's unwillingness to be subjugated by God), and God has just cast him and his co-rebels into the Pit. This is what Lucifer (now Satan) has to say about it:

Is this the Region, this the Soil, the Clime,
Said then the lost Arch Angel, this the seat
That we must change for Heav'n, this mournful gloom
For that celestial light? Be it so, since hee
Who now is Sovran can dispose and bid
What shall be right: fardest from him is best
Whom reason hath equald, force hath made supream
Above his equals. Farewel happy Fields
Where Joy for ever dwells: Hail horrours, hail
Infernal world, and thou profoundest Hell
Receive thy new Possessor: One who brings
A mind not to be chang'd by Place or Time.
The mind is its own place, and in it self
Can make a Heav'n of Hell, a Hell of Heav'n.
What matter where, if I be still the same,
And what I should be, all but less then hee
Whom Thunder hath made greater? Here at least
We shall be free; th' Almighty hath not built
Here for his envy, will not drive us hence:
Here we may reign secure, and in my choyce
To reign is worth ambition though in Hell:
Better to reign in Hell, then serve in Heav'n.
I missed this post while the forum was being 'changed over', along with a few others. I placed the bulk of it in a spoiler for readability.

My childhood was spent being dragged from one near-cult to the next, and we got every flavour and interpretation of hell, including all the authors and artists you mention. I tend to think hell is as you quote:
We were taught that Hell was simply being separated from God, wherever that may be
There's a current understanding of sin that it's simply being 'outside of relationship with God' - so it's a state rather than an act, and that sinful acts are simply indicators of the state. Hell, then, may be that as a permanent condition, but the Bible does speak of endless torment. That torment might be physical - in whatever form that might take in the afterlife - or a mental anguish. I honestly don't have a strong view either way as the scripture describes Hell both ways. I tend to think the focus is more on separation from God. I believe we all experience God in some way on earth, however we choose to describe that... in a newborn child, in nature, in a loving relationship. The anguish of never again knowing any of that would be true torment.

I truly don't believe in 'scaring the hell out of people'... this is just my musing and muttering for the night.
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StroppyChops
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Re: Spirituality: Curious about Christianity?

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snookie BRO wrote:Stroppy

Define for us what Christianity is all about, and what's so good about it.
That's a pretty big question, Bro.

Here's my 'in a nutshell response' - each statement is (in my view) a lifetime of study and questioning in itself.

I believe the Bible to be the inspired Word of God, with some parts to be read literally and others figuratively, and that the original Greek and Hebrew manuscripts are without error. God exists in all times in three persons - God the Father, God the Son (also called the Word), God the Holy Spirit. These are not three distinct gods, this is the Trinity- the Three in One. There are no other gods but God.

God created this physical world and universe (whether in six literal days or six eons) and then created the first man and woman, Adam and Eve, so that they and their children would have relationship with Him and worship Him, and rule the earth. For the relationship and worship to be 'real' and not just programmed actions He gave mankind free will, the ability to choose their own actions. Adam and Eve chose to disobey the one rule God had given them, and mankind went from walking in the garden with God, to a life of burden and hardship, and separation from God.

In what we might see as anger and vengeance, God established a system of harsh rules which, if followed, would allow mankind to continue to worship Him, but not have individual relationship with Him. These rules involve a lot of death and sacrifice, and were actually not ever designed to be achievable - it wasn't God's original plan but a consequence of the choices made by Adam and Eve. One of the tribes to come from the original descendants of Adam and Eve (sort of) followed God's harsh rules and were His 'chosen people' - the line of David (Israelites/Jews), which later included Jesus Christ.

This sacrifice/unachievable rules thing sucked badly and wasn't working out (nor was it meant to). The sacrifices weren't permanent or lasting enough for God as by nature His people kept getting it wrong and only ever knew of Him as a fairly malevolent and distant deity. Jesus took on human form through virgin birth - becoming wholly God and wholly human - to be destroyed as the ultimate sacrifice (as a sinless man), to bridge the gap between God and man. Christ was crucified, died, was sealed in the tomb, and came back from the dead before returning to the Trinity.

Through an individual, spiritual relationship with Jesus Christ, those who choose to can know God the Father the way He intended in the first place. That, in a nutshell, is Christianity.

"What is good about Christianity" is a harder question to answer.

If by 'Christianity' you mean organised religion like the Roman Catholic Church and others, or weirdo groups like the Mormons, or even well-meaning scholarly groups like the Seventh Day Adventists I can't help you. From organisations like these come death and religion.

If by 'Christianity' you mean what people practice when they follow the Greatest Commandmentaccording to Christ, then the answer is self-obvious. Jewish scholars (smart bastard lawyers) were trying to trap Christ on His understanding of Jewish law and asked Him what the greatest commandment was. He correctly answered that it is to "love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind." Score: one for one. But then He surprised them with Part B to the answer, which He said was equally as important - "Love your neighbour as yourself." Only with both parts of this response is biblical/Jewish law being fully met.
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Re: Spirituality: Curious about Christianity?

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StroppyChops wrote: If by 'Christianity' you mean organised religion like the Roman Catholic Church and others, or weirdo groups like the Mormons, or even well-meaning scholarly groups like the Seventh Day Adventists I can't help you. From organisations like these come death and religion.

Jewish scholars (smart bastard lawyers) were trying to trap Christ on His understanding of Jewish law and asked Him what the greatest commandment was. He correctly answered that it is to "love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind." Score: one for one. But then He surprised them with Part B to the answer, which He said was equally as important - "Love your neighbour as yourself." Only with both parts of this response is biblical/Jewish law being fully met.
Hello Stroppy. Since I am just stepping back into this forum after a 6 month or so absence, I am not looking to pick a fight with you, but I need to point out the inconsistency in your two paragraphs above. You emphasize -- Jesus saying "Love Your Neighbor as Yourself" in your second paragraph yet you dismiss Catholics, Mormons, and others -- even using the term "weirdo" in your first paragraph. Are they not worth loving either?

Jesus never started a religion. His followers did later on. I believe the evidence for a Historical Jesus is quite high. He tried to reform conditions at the time by reminding people we should help each other rather than oppress each other. He also attacked usury (a way of further oppressing the oppressed) and what he saw as self-serving corruption among the priestly cause. Messages of love and compassion and charity are very powerful messages that all major religions share. His messages are worth remembering and honoring.

The historical case for a resurrection, and all the irrational dogma that went with it (trinity, Original sin) is extremely weak. It is a matter of faith (as most religious dogma is), and I believe people should be allowed to believe in their dogma as long as they do harm others.

When I see someone talking about being "Christian", I look first as to whether they are truly trying to raise the oppressed up --- not by converting them or "buying" their souls, but by actually caring for them.

Then I look at whether they are trying to impose their "Brand" of beliefs on others or smearing other religions or denominations. If not -- then great.

These two factors (Presence of the first and absence of the second) tell me all I need to know about how one truly understands the teachings of Jesus.

Anything less is just the same sort of Tribal BS that has plagued every other belief system (religious or any "Ism") over time.

Cheers,

RD
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Re: Spirituality: Curious about Christianity?

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Rain Dog wrote:
StroppyChops wrote: If by 'Christianity' you mean organised religion like the Roman Catholic Church and others, or weirdo groups like the Mormons, or even well-meaning scholarly groups like the Seventh Day Adventists I can't help you. From organisations like these come death and religion.

Jewish scholars (smart bastard lawyers) were trying to trap Christ on His understanding of Jewish law and asked Him what the greatest commandment was. He correctly answered that it is to "love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind." Score: one for one. But then He surprised them with Part B to the answer, which He said was equally as important - "Love your neighbour as yourself." Only with both parts of this response is biblical/Jewish law being fully met.
Hello Stroppy. Since I am just stepping back into this forum after a 6 month or so absence, I am not looking to pick a fight with you, but I need to point out the inconsistency in your two paragraphs above. You emphasize -- Jesus saying "Love Your Neighbor as Yourself" in your second paragraph yet you dismiss Catholics, Mormons, and others -- even using the term "weirdo" in your first paragraph. Are they not worth loving either?

Jesus never started a religion. His followers did later on. I believe the evidence for a Historical Jesus is quite high. He tried to reform conditions at the time by reminding people we should help each other rather than oppress each other. He also attacked usury (a way of further oppressing the oppressed) and what he saw as self-serving corruption among the priestly cause. Messages of love and compassion and charity are very powerful messages that all major religions share. His messages are worth remembering and honoring.

The historical case for a resurrection, and all the irrational dogma that went with it (trinity, Original sin) is extremely weak. It is a matter of faith (as most religious dogma is), and I believe people should be allowed to believe in their dogma as long as they do harm others.

When I see someone talking about being "Christian", I look first as to whether they are truly trying to raise the oppressed up --- not by converting them or "buying" their souls, but by actually caring for them.

Then I look at whether they are trying to impose their "Brand" of beliefs on others or smearing other religions or denominations. If not -- then great.

These two factors (Presence of the first and absence of the second) tell me all I need to know about how one truly understands the teachings of Jesus.

Anything less is just the same sort of Tribal BS that has plagued every other belief system (religious or any "Ism") over time.

Cheers,

RD
Good comments as always RD and welcome back. Actually, I was bagging the organisations rather than the individuals. It's similar to me despising some variations of modern-day Islam yet having good Muslim friends. You can define my comments as 'smearing' other religions if you like, I don't agree. I'm pretty happy to be measured by the higher standard mentioned in my post above.

I too am deeply opposed to buying souls and am genuinely interested in lifting someone up simply because I am commanded to do so and have a desire to do so. I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of nationals I interact with have no idea of my own theology.

I have no argument with your other comments, your views and opinions are equally as valid and worthy of airing as mine.
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Re: Spirituality: Curious about Christianity?

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StroppyChops wrote:
Good comments as always RD and welcome back. Actually, I was bagging the organisations rather than the individuals. It's similar to me despising some variations of modern-day Islam yet having good Muslim friends. You can define my comments as 'smearing' other religions if you like, I don't agree. I'm pretty happy to be measured by the higher standard mentioned in my post above.

I too am deeply opposed to buying souls and am genuinely interested in lifting someone up simply because I am commanded to do so and have a desire to do so. I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of nationals I interact with have no idea of my own theology.

I have no argument with your other comments, your views and opinions are equally as valid and worthy of airing as mine.
Thanks for the quality reply. As someone whose belief system lies in the murky world of modern deism and Panentheism I have always had an instinctive interest in Singularity, or as ancient Muslim scholars articulated the concept, "tawhid" ... that everything in all of creation, emanates from "The One" (Whether or not you believe in A "Divine Architect" or a more "Personal God".)

Once you accept that everything emanates from "The One", it becomes irrational to hate. It becomes like hating a part of yourself.

Modern day Christian Dispensationalism could not exist without the Protestant Reformation that came before it. Mainstream Protestantism could not exist without the Catholic Church existing first, the Catholic Church could not exist without the interests that resulted in the split between Eastern and Western Christianity.

The more we can remember that we all come from the same place, and will eventually return there (by whatever path), the easier it is to relate to each other.

Modern Christianity seems increasingly based on a distrust of central religious authority (with reason I admit), individualism, and western rationalism. There are some benefits to this, but also drawbacks. Do-it-yourself rationalistic approaches to religion will always contain dangers too as individuals' capabilities vary and whether we realize it or not, all of our acquired "Knowledge" is usually driven by or based on preexisting biases. Thus they tend towards more "Tribal" conclusions (Rational Argument A Vs Rational Argument B) rather than any sense of "Oneness".

For these reasons, I have become distrustful of overly rational approaches to religion and am more inclined to look for inspiration in the Metaphysical (Like Questioning Karma). I suppose if I were a Christian in any meaningful sense I would be more drawn to an Eastern Orthodox tradition. Despite the weaknesses in many such Churches they do seem to focus more on spiritual seeking rather than rationalism.

I am not singling out Christianity either. Daesh and Wahhabism are prime examples of what happens when people lose their spiritual roots and resort to "Rationalizing" texts to fit various agendas.

That said I think that Daesh (ISIS) nutters and Christian nutters who preach hate, support war, wave the flag and cheer on Bombing Campaigns are pretty much two sides of the same coin.

Cheers,

RD
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Re: Spirituality: Curious about Christianity?

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Rain Dog wrote:Thanks for the quality reply. As someone whose belief system lies in the murky world of modern deism and Panentheism I have always had an instinctive interest in Singularity, or as ancient Muslim scholars articulated the concept, "tawhid" ... that everything in all of creation, emanates from "The One" (Whether or not you believe in A "Divine Architect" or a more "Personal God".)

Once you accept that everything emanates from "The One", it becomes irrational to hate. It becomes like hating a part of yourself... The more we can remember that we all come from the same place, and will eventually return there (by whatever path), the easier it is to relate to each other.
Agreed - I find it very difficult to hate another individual. Normally when I'm heading in that direction it turns to pity, sympathy or empathy for me. Hating the behaviour of others is a different matter though, especially when talking about those who prey on the defenseless.
Do-it-yourself rationalistic approaches to religion will always contain dangers too as individuals' capabilities vary and whether we realize it or not, all of our acquired "Knowledge" is usually driven by or based on preexisting biases. Thus they tend towards more "Tribal" conclusions (Rational Argument A Vs Rational Argument B) rather than any sense of "Oneness".
Yeah, the design-your-own-happy-religion version of Christianity (or any other -ism) leaves me cold. I'm also the first to admit that my 'choice of religion' was shaped by my background and heritage as a the son of a missionary woman and a convicted felon - easy to run with the church pack, but not until after my own legal conviction stopped me in my tracks did it become meaningful for me. Re tribalism - I find that once the right-fighting starts, I'm much more interested in going and doing something else.
For these reasons, I have become distrustful of overly rational approaches to religion and am more inclined to look for inspiration in the Metaphysical (Like Questioning Karma). I suppose if I were a Christian in any meaningful sense I would be more drawn to an Eastern Orthodox tradition. Despite the weaknesses in many such Churches they do seem to focus more on spiritual seeking rather than rationalism.
One of the aspects I enjoy of posting here is the openness with which posters - such as yourself - are prepared to share their thoughts, stance, attitudes and approaches to spirituality. It's initially surprising, and then not, that so many are so spiritual - but I guess after all that's a shared trait among many expats in Cambodia.
I am not singling out Christianity either. Daesh and Wahhabism are prime examples of what happens when people lose their spiritual roots and resort to "Rationalizing" texts to fit various agendas.

That said I think that Daesh (ISIS) nutters and Christian nutters who preach hate, support war, wave the flag and cheer on Bombing Campaigns are pretty much two sides of the same coin.
Absolutely - the Crusades, witch trials, and more modern hate campaigns do not do the Christian church any favours. The church is a sick beast when it doesn't follow the provided instructions.
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Re: Spirituality: Curious about Christianity?

Post by snookie BRO »

StroppyChops wrote:
snookie BRO wrote:Stroppy

Define for us what Christianity is all about, and what's so good about it.
That's a pretty big question, Bro.

Here's my 'in a nutshell response' ...............
Thanks Stroppy.

You seem to have a very sane grip on the Religion.

Personally i am interested in it, but it mostly remains a puzzle for me. Without a doubt the Bible is mostly misunderstood by many modern Christians simply because they do not understand just how different life was back in that day. There is a great possability that Jesus used Entheogens, even as being known as 'the annointed one',etc. (Knowing that, it's possible to understand a lot more of the goings on written in the Bible.)

Whatever, whilst i believe it's good to try and understand Christianity, i also believe that with all the other spiritual stuff being made knowledge 'online', that we should at least try and understand other religions/spiritual viewpoints, in order to reach a greater understanding of life from as many different aspects as possible. It simply isn't fair to ourselves to just accept one religion without knowing about the rest, just like it isn't wise to only mix with tourists from your home country when in in Cambodia, for the sake of limiting/expanding your worldly knowledge?

Kinda like the Brittish who have holidays in Spain, and only eat/drink Brittish food and beer, because they are too ignorant and afraid to try something new, maybe scared to learn that Spanish food/life is even better, and their ego's are scared to face the truth??!! :lol:
StroppyChops wrote: Here's my 'in a nutshell response' - each statement is (in my view) a lifetime of study and questioning in itself.

I believe the Bible to be.....
This is what IMO it all comes down to, you see us Humans are all trying to create something 'Tangiable' about God. We want to be able to 'Box it in', to come to some sort of peace with ourselves about what this is all about. Thing is everybody can have a different view of the same thing, depending from the angle they view it from. :popcorn:

You yourself have 'Cherry picked' the parts of Christianity which satisfy your belief Ego, but Christianity can be so differently interpreted it becomes something different. Mind you, i don't blame you for doing so. There is so much that is written, and it is normal to question the words written by another human being. Personally i would rather get divine inspiration directly from God himself, universal consciousness, etc,etc. I personally cannot see how reading the Bible even comes close to understanding ourselves and God. That i believe is where Meditation and Entheogens have that purpose-to remove your stubborn Ego, to show you Emotionally, Psychologically, Visually-the truth, that words cannot even describe. A book is simply a Joke, kindergarden stuff... :ugeek:

So, from a very simplistic POV, i would say that it's probably most intelligent that in the absence of such Ego deconstructing 'tools', that if one wants the best ever and most useful 'Bible of service', a decent set of beliefs, then they should learn as much as they can from a wide array of different Spiritual sources, and find the ones that they can use in their lives to fulfill the work God wishes us to do. Personally i believe there are many paths, and it may be foolish to believe there is only one.

Cheers!


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Re: Spirituality: Curious about Christianity?

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vlad is dog.

There is no other dog but vlad.

You will obey, or be smitten.
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Re: Spirituality: Curious about Christianity?

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snookie BRO wrote:You yourself have 'Cherry picked' the parts of Christianity which satisfy your belief Ego, but Christianity can be so differently interpreted it becomes something different.
Interpretation is certainly an issue, but I'm not sure what you mean about me cherry-picking scriptures. Any examples?
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Re: Spirituality: Curious about Christianity?

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vladimir wrote:vlad is dog.

There is no other dog but vlad.

You will obey, or be smitten.
Do you get ruff with the non-believers?
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