monomial wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 7:22 am
Did you even make the slightest attempt to understand the metric she was applying to determine "better"? Or did you simply substitute your value system and decide that she was an idiot because she didn't agree with you?

Personally, I think the US is doing a fantastic job with this virus. Much better than most countries. Not as good as Sweden, of course, but much better than most everywhere in Europe. I don't use the media reported death rate to come to this conclusion. What I see instead is that the US has already managed to move a tremendous number of its citizens from the 'S' category (Suceptible) into the 'R' category (Recovered/Removed). This number isn't published, but you can use the total number of cases per capita as a proxy.

Look at the UK by contrast. They are actually talking about LOCKING DOWN again. Now that is truly a horrible situation, and represents a complete failure of policy to deal with the realities of this virus. The pain from lockdowns is so much worse than the pain from this virus. The UK still has much more pain in front of it than does the USA. Between the two countries there is no doubt the USA has done a much better job to date. The USA has done much of the hard work already. The UK is still hiding from it.

Perhaps instead of disparaging people with different value systems who think differently than you, you should try and understand them. How do you debate with people like me? It isn't hard. You try and find common ground, understand each other's perspective, and treat each other with respect.

Try it. You might find it makes the world a better place. If you can't understand a perspective, perhaps the problem lies with you.

I would like to understand your view but I'm having trouble making sense of what you have said. You said the USA is doing better than Britain but not as good as Sweden and you are using cases per capita for your reasoning.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

Total cases per million -
USA - 23,456
Britain - 8,006
Sweden - 9,557

Total deaths per million -
USA - 654
Britain - 625
Sweden - 582

Looking at new cases for each of the 3 countries, Sweden has the lowest per capita and Britain currently has the highest. However, looking at new deaths USA has a far higher number per capita than both Britain and Sweden. Its fair to say that none of these countries have done too well through this pandemic. If you want to look at countries that have done well of the developed nations, compare any of these countries to Taiwan, Japan, New Zealand, Australia or South Korea.

With testing varying in each country so much, I understand that the truer figure to look at would be hospital admissions or deaths.

I'm not trying to pick an argument with you, just trying to understand your reasoning better and possibly help you to see any flaws in it should there be any.

There will be no vaccine and even if there is, it will only be valid for one year as is the case with the flu vaccine. The only way forward is exactly the same as it has been for around 15,000 years - there is a new virus, some people will die, the vast majority won't. America seems to be moving in that direction, the rest of the world will have to follow - or what is the alternative?

Cambo Dear wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 5:22 pm There will be no vaccine and even if there is, it will only be valid for one year as is the case with the flu vaccine. The only way forward is exactly the same as it has been for around 15,000 years - there is a new virus, some people will die, the vast majority won't. America seems to be moving in that direction, the rest of the world will have to follow - or what is the alternative?

I thought the reason was to buy time. Time to understand this new virus, the effects it has on humans in both the short and long term as well as understand how it mutates, time to research vaccines, time for medical experts to figure out what treatments work against the virus and time to find a way to live with it.

Which field are you working in regarding the research of vaccines? You say there won't be one but also there might be one but only valid for a year. That is somewhat confusing to a simple mind like mine. If your solution is to do what has been done for thousands of years should we stop all forms of mass transit and severely limit the amount of contact between communities? Oh wait, that sounds familiar with steps being taken now although, you may need to dramatically reduce to population size.

When an even deadlier and more contagious virus shows up, which it almost certainly will at some point, do you suggest doing nothing and letting it kill the entire human race? Or would the wise action to take be to try to slow the spread to give science and medicine a chance to catch up?

We all have a part to play in this and burying your head in the sand is not the solution. Give science a chance, most of your life is based on the benefits of science.

monomial wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 7:22 am

tightenupvolume1 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 07, 2020 1:26 pm I just heard a trump press person being interviewed on the BBC, she said that president Trump has always treated the virus 'seriously" which is why the USA is doing so much better than the rest of the world.

How do you debate with people like that ? she refuses to accept that the USA is one of the worst infected countries with the highest death rate

Did you even make the slightest attempt to understand the metric she was applying to determine "better"? Or did you simply substitute your value system and decide that she was an idiot because she didn't agree with you?

Personally, I think the US is doing a fantastic job with this virus. Much better than most countries. Not as good as Sweden, of course, but much better than most everywhere in Europe. I don't use the media reported death rate to come to this conclusion. What I see instead is that the US has already managed to move a tremendous number of its citizens from the 'S' category (Suceptible) into the 'R' category (Recovered/Removed). This number isn't published, but you can use the total number of cases per capita as a proxy.

Look at the UK by contrast. They are actually talking about LOCKING DOWN again. Now that is truly a horrible situation, and represents a complete failure of policy to deal with the realities of this virus. The pain from lockdowns is so much worse than the pain from this virus. The UK still has much more pain in front of it than does the USA. Between the two countries there is no doubt the USA has done a much better job to date. The USA has done much of the hard work already. The UK is still hiding from it.

Perhaps instead of disparaging people with different value systems who think differently than you, you should try and understand them. How do you debate with people like me? It isn't hard. You try and find common ground, understand each other's perspective, and treat each other with respect.

Try it. You might find it makes the world a better place. If you can't understand a perspective, perhaps the problem lies with you.

Is there a new definition of “better”? Where it means the opposite? I didn’t see any changes to the dictionary.
From a former head of the, once respected, CDC
“Despite the White House spin attempts, this will go down as a colossal failure of the public health system of this country,” Foege wrote, calling the country’s poor response a “tragedy” and “a slaughter... not just a political dispute.”

“The public health texts of the future will use this as a lesson on how not to handle an infectious disease pandemic... The cause will be the incompetence and illogic of the White House program,” he added.
Full: https://arstechnica.com/science/2020/10 ... mps-toady/

Is there a new definition of “better”? Where it means the opposite? I didn’t see any changes to the dictionary.
From a former head of the, once respected, CDC
“Despite the White House spin attempts, this will go down as a colossal failure of the public health system of this country,” Foege wrote, calling the country’s poor response a “tragedy” and “a slaughter... not just a political dispute.”

“The public health texts of the future will use this as a lesson on how not to handle an infectious disease pandemic... The cause will be the incompetence and illogic of the White House program,” he added.
Full: https://arstechnica.com/science/2020/10 ... mps-toady/
[/quote]
---------------

I don't disagree that the White House has failed - specifically the refusal of the president to tell folks to wear a mask. Its disgraceful.

But the lesson should also include the massive failure by our "public health" bureaucracy. We have a group formed after 9/11 to prepare for pandemics. Thats it. They only work on pandemic preparation. Billions have been spent. Yet, when this hit - the best people from past administrations could point to was a "playbook" which was so generic as to be worthless. Billions for a "playbook". What was the money actually spent on? Conferences and fancy hotels and airfare around the world. Oh, and 100K+ salaries for these "public servants".

And how did the CDC and FDA perform? Well, The CDC violated their own manufacturing regulations and botched the test kits at the beginning of the outbreak. Then they lied about it. And the FDA initiated NEW regulations shutting out private companies from developing test kits. A total cluster. And how many people were fired for this nonsense? Zero. And lets be clear - this is what led to the virus getting a foothold in the USA. And you can't place any of that on the president.

And how well did they follow that up? oh, they told us "Don't wear a mask". Doesn't help. Wash your hands and keep 6 feet apart. Said that for almost 2 months. Then?...... Wear a mask!!!! Did I mention that we spent billions on "pandemic preparation".

So yes, criticize the president for his poor leadership, total lack of empathy, and not taking this as seriously as needed. BUT please lets not overlook the total failure of the bureaucracy to do anything half way competent.

“In or around May 2018, the White House dissolved the National Security Council (NSC) Directorate for Global Health Security and Biodefense. Established in 2014, the Directorate was responsible for monitoring global health risks, including disease outbreaks, and coordinating the federal government's response thereto. It was dissolved as part of a broader reorganization of the NSC, which was oversee by then National Security Advisor John Bolton. As part of the reorganization, Directorate staff were reassigned to other NSC units, including one focused on weapons of mass destruction, and another responsible for international organizations. The Directorate's senior director, Rear Adm. R. Timothy Ziemer, was reportedly "pushed out" and left the NSC. A spokesperson for the NSC told reporters that the Trump administration "remains committed to global health, global health security and biodefense, and will continue to address it." However, critics fear that dissolution of the Directorate could hamper the federal government's response to future health crises, with one former government official describing the developments as a "really concerning rollback of progress on U.S. health security preparedness”

Update:

In early 2020, public health experts criticized the Trump administration's decision to dissolve the Directorate, claiming that it may have hampered the U.S.' ability to respond to the COVID-19 pandemic
From Colombia University

I’m no fan of Obama, however, he setup a new department to deal with exactly this kind of thing, and, left the guidelines for how it should be handled. Trump disbanded that department, then repeatedly lied about there being no “playbook”(for a disease that didn’t exist during his presidency) and how Obama “left the cupboards bare”.
The only country giving the U.S. a run for its money, as far as “we are utter fuckwits” is Brazil.

Clemen wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 7:10 pm
The only country giving the U.S. a run for its money, as far as “we are utter fuckwits” is Brazil.

It's not funny, but made me laugh ...

monomial wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 7:22 am Personally, I think the US is doing a fantastic job with this virus. Much better than most countries. Not as good as Sweden, of course, but much better than most everywhere in Europe. I don't use the media reported death rate to come to this conclusion. What I see instead is that the US has already managed to move a tremendous number of its citizens from the 'S' category (Suceptible) into the 'R' category (Recovered/Removed). This number isn't published, but you can use the total number of cases per capita as a proxy.

What I just read..