Adults depending on their children - social criticism
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daeum_tnaot
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Adults depending on their children - social criticism
This is something that has been on my mind for quite a while, an aspect of Cambodian culture that I find to be dysfunctional and I wonder if others have seen signs of this, especially if your partner is Cambodian, and if you have any thoughts about it.
My partner and I have become increasingly aware of the issue of relatively able-bodied adults, usually starting from the late forties or around age 50, believing that they have a right to depend on their children. We often hear about this in public transport, or from people in the rural areas, that they are living on money sent to them by their children. And they feel that this is the natural order of things and that they are entitled to this.
As these people believe they are entitled to this and it is the natural order of things, they become increasingly inactive and dependent, even when they probably could earn money.
We've never really seen any sign that the younger generation disagrees with this, but rather they just don't send as much money as the parents think they are entitled to. And so the parents complain about this.
It seems dysfunctional to me in the sense that people who still could be productive are deliberately "retiring" at a relatively young age, which puts a strain on the younger generation in that they have to provide for themselves, their children and also their parents. I would guess that some young people find this to be a burden, but rather than saying anything to their parents that it doesn't make sense and they should actually do something with their life, the young people just somehow don't send much money or perhaps even abscond entirely.
Would welcome any comments whether others have had similar experiences, agree, etc.
My partner and I have become increasingly aware of the issue of relatively able-bodied adults, usually starting from the late forties or around age 50, believing that they have a right to depend on their children. We often hear about this in public transport, or from people in the rural areas, that they are living on money sent to them by their children. And they feel that this is the natural order of things and that they are entitled to this.
As these people believe they are entitled to this and it is the natural order of things, they become increasingly inactive and dependent, even when they probably could earn money.
We've never really seen any sign that the younger generation disagrees with this, but rather they just don't send as much money as the parents think they are entitled to. And so the parents complain about this.
It seems dysfunctional to me in the sense that people who still could be productive are deliberately "retiring" at a relatively young age, which puts a strain on the younger generation in that they have to provide for themselves, their children and also their parents. I would guess that some young people find this to be a burden, but rather than saying anything to their parents that it doesn't make sense and they should actually do something with their life, the young people just somehow don't send much money or perhaps even abscond entirely.
Would welcome any comments whether others have had similar experiences, agree, etc.
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nerdlinger
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Re: Adults depending on their children - social criticism
Same deal in the Philippines. I’d be interested to read a proper study done on the topic.
I’m guessing it’s due in part to the perception that the younger generation have so much more opportunities open to them than the previous one, who had to bring up their kids in incredibly difficult circumstances.
But, I don’t know how much of it is something that just always has been the case for centuries. It’s only in a post-industrial economy that you’d expect the average worker to be at the peak of their earning power at age 60.
I’m guessing it’s due in part to the perception that the younger generation have so much more opportunities open to them than the previous one, who had to bring up their kids in incredibly difficult circumstances.
But, I don’t know how much of it is something that just always has been the case for centuries. It’s only in a post-industrial economy that you’d expect the average worker to be at the peak of their earning power at age 60.
Re: Adults depending on their children - social criticism
That is the way it is.
Anyone that is dating a Khmer woman better have the conversation upfront prior to marriage. And that conversation better include the mother/father.
I think part of it is cultural and part of it is practical. My wife's mother has lived a tough life. She has minimal education thanks to the Khmer Rouge, certainly has some difficulties due to the war and will never have a "good" job. Similar story for her father but a bit different situation. For many people living in the province at age 50 or 60 what is there really for them to do? Manual labor takes its toll, younger people leave so selling in the market makes less than 5 or 10 years ago. And any newer opportunities go to the younger and (relatively) better educated. So its count on the kids.
Now I've also seen plenty of better off Khmer parents simply abusing the kids. A few years ago, I once slipped a young guy 10 dollars (which he paid back) at a pizza company as his wife's parents had run up the bill ordering all kinds of crap on top of dinner - and he was sweating bullets as he couldn't cover the bill. Why? So they could take pictures to show off. I told him that he better lay down the law with his wife and her family that night or he'd spend the rest of his life being miserable.
I've made it clear to my wife that we will be doing everything possible to make our kids life as good as they can be - and that doesn't include sending money to mom and dad.
Anyone that is dating a Khmer woman better have the conversation upfront prior to marriage. And that conversation better include the mother/father.
I think part of it is cultural and part of it is practical. My wife's mother has lived a tough life. She has minimal education thanks to the Khmer Rouge, certainly has some difficulties due to the war and will never have a "good" job. Similar story for her father but a bit different situation. For many people living in the province at age 50 or 60 what is there really for them to do? Manual labor takes its toll, younger people leave so selling in the market makes less than 5 or 10 years ago. And any newer opportunities go to the younger and (relatively) better educated. So its count on the kids.
Now I've also seen plenty of better off Khmer parents simply abusing the kids. A few years ago, I once slipped a young guy 10 dollars (which he paid back) at a pizza company as his wife's parents had run up the bill ordering all kinds of crap on top of dinner - and he was sweating bullets as he couldn't cover the bill. Why? So they could take pictures to show off. I told him that he better lay down the law with his wife and her family that night or he'd spend the rest of his life being miserable.
I've made it clear to my wife that we will be doing everything possible to make our kids life as good as they can be - and that doesn't include sending money to mom and dad.
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siliconlife
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Re: Adults depending on their children - social criticism
Useless atavistic "culture" perpetuated by lack of welfare and the laziness/shortcut epidemic. It really blows for families like mine, who refuse to accept money from our own kids, and have to bear the burden of 3 generations. Sore point, but what can you do. I just wish the younger generations here realized properly that it is not logical or beneficial for society to funnel resources backwards, even if they have very little choice but to do so.
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Freightdog
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Re: Adults depending on their children - social criticism
Once again, it’s an aspect that’s very much prevalent in Asia, and somewhat at odds with the ‘developed west’ where the efforts are focused very differently.
But those developed countries haven’t always been this way. We’re only just losing the last Of the older generations that still had some aspects of this thinking.
In conversations with elements of the extended family, some of the very old members were part of a progressive Cambodia, with wider understanding of the world. It’s the generations that were coming up during the seventies and eighties who seem to have gone backwards. Aspirations regarding education? Why the need for school for all the children when they’re really expected to carry on the traditional way of life, even if that way of life is clearly struggling?
SWMBO and I discussed at length (ish) the idea of having a child, before we went ahead. Her thoughts being the traditional ones of the child taking care of the parent. It’s part of the normal thinking. Just not normal to us, the foreigners here. Little did she really appreciate that, especially with the older barang relationships, I’ll be in my late 60’s when the little fella leaves school. Hardly in a position to be taking care of the parents.
As I mention, though, it’s not unique to Cambodia. The same expectations exist in a lot of Asia. Look at the Indian sub-continent. With a massive population, a poverty level existence for many, and with a children born to support the family ideal. Where children aren’t expected to be entirely self-sufficient until much later. Where the family isn’t just a couple of generations living close together, but several.
At odds with this, though, is a poorly educated younger generation firmly thrust into the grip of modern technology, and awareness of what could be, but lacking the knowledge of how to properly make it happen.
Just my two cents.
But those developed countries haven’t always been this way. We’re only just losing the last Of the older generations that still had some aspects of this thinking.
In conversations with elements of the extended family, some of the very old members were part of a progressive Cambodia, with wider understanding of the world. It’s the generations that were coming up during the seventies and eighties who seem to have gone backwards. Aspirations regarding education? Why the need for school for all the children when they’re really expected to carry on the traditional way of life, even if that way of life is clearly struggling?
SWMBO and I discussed at length (ish) the idea of having a child, before we went ahead. Her thoughts being the traditional ones of the child taking care of the parent. It’s part of the normal thinking. Just not normal to us, the foreigners here. Little did she really appreciate that, especially with the older barang relationships, I’ll be in my late 60’s when the little fella leaves school. Hardly in a position to be taking care of the parents.
As I mention, though, it’s not unique to Cambodia. The same expectations exist in a lot of Asia. Look at the Indian sub-continent. With a massive population, a poverty level existence for many, and with a children born to support the family ideal. Where children aren’t expected to be entirely self-sufficient until much later. Where the family isn’t just a couple of generations living close together, but several.
At odds with this, though, is a poorly educated younger generation firmly thrust into the grip of modern technology, and awareness of what could be, but lacking the knowledge of how to properly make it happen.
Just my two cents.
Re: Adults depending on their children - social criticism
Not sure what it is you don't understand. Everything you say is true from a Western perspective. But that is irrelevant here.
From an Asian perspective, the parents supported the children up until they were old enough to work, and it is simply common sense that the children must now support the parents once they can work. If you are wealthy enough to move out completely on your own then good for you, but that doesn't relieve you of your fiscal responsibilities to the larger family. You are always welcome to continue living at home if you want. There is no stigma attached to this as there is in the West. It is your choice to leave and live elsewhere. As you note, it isn't really a complete transfer of responsibility from parent to child immediately as soon as the child enters the workforce. Instead, it is merely contributing and helping out in the beginning, and the expectations of increased payments become larger as the parents get older and are presumably less able to contribute to the family finances.
Do parents expect this? Of course they do. It is the culture. We took care of you...now you help take care of us. In the good families the parents keep working as long as possible in addition to receiving money from the children. In the bad ones, they become lazy and start depending completely on the children, especially if the children have means. No different than people in the West who become dependent on government social services rather than working for a living. There are all different kinds with different values.
From an Asian perspective, the parents supported the children up until they were old enough to work, and it is simply common sense that the children must now support the parents once they can work. If you are wealthy enough to move out completely on your own then good for you, but that doesn't relieve you of your fiscal responsibilities to the larger family. You are always welcome to continue living at home if you want. There is no stigma attached to this as there is in the West. It is your choice to leave and live elsewhere. As you note, it isn't really a complete transfer of responsibility from parent to child immediately as soon as the child enters the workforce. Instead, it is merely contributing and helping out in the beginning, and the expectations of increased payments become larger as the parents get older and are presumably less able to contribute to the family finances.
Do parents expect this? Of course they do. It is the culture. We took care of you...now you help take care of us. In the good families the parents keep working as long as possible in addition to receiving money from the children. In the bad ones, they become lazy and start depending completely on the children, especially if the children have means. No different than people in the West who become dependent on government social services rather than working for a living. There are all different kinds with different values.
Re: Adults depending on their children - social criticism
In the West when you retire you have an income in the form of a pension provided by the state along with other welfare support, and in many cases income from a private/employer pension scheme or other investments. That has not been the case here, and still isn’t for most of the population.
My other half’s parents have basically worked hand to mouth all of their lives, it’s not exactly by choice that they will rely on their kids to provide for them in the coming years.
My other half’s parents have basically worked hand to mouth all of their lives, it’s not exactly by choice that they will rely on their kids to provide for them in the coming years.
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Clutch Cargo
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Re: Adults depending on their children - social criticism
^^^^
Agree with that and I think it highlights the fundamental differences between raising kids in the east and the west. At least for the less well off asian families.
With a largely absent social welfare safety net in places like Cambodia, Philippines and Thailand, many couples have kids for largely different purposes to that in the west. They have kids for their future financial security when they are too old or sick to work or have insufficient financial means to take care of themselves. And sometimes the more the better, coz that means more hands to work the farm or a higher chance that some will do well or marry into money.
Now this idea with a western hat on would appear abhorrent in the west coz having kids for these purposes would be seen akin to having 'chattels' for the sake of a return on investment. And arguably from what I've heard, many asian parents promote the dictum to their kids that: I brought you into this world and made many sacrifices to bring you up and now it's your duty to take care of me. It is what it is in lower socio economic areas of asia I guess and meets the practical requirements of family survival.
But sadly, I've also seen and heard many stories in Thailand, Philippines and Cambodia of parents sending their daughters to the city to work and send money home where they either don't want to know or know but ignore what work/service their daughters are doing to send money home. A case of 'turning a blind eye' for practical purposes..
Of course not all girls choose the bar life but at the same time, there are many others that don't have that choice for the purposes of supporting their parents and families. And sometimes the family can be very demanding and the girls are torn emotionally in the process. An aspect that even if I take my western hat off, I find very troublesome morally in my mind the way some parents use their kids in that manner.
Agree with that and I think it highlights the fundamental differences between raising kids in the east and the west. At least for the less well off asian families.
With a largely absent social welfare safety net in places like Cambodia, Philippines and Thailand, many couples have kids for largely different purposes to that in the west. They have kids for their future financial security when they are too old or sick to work or have insufficient financial means to take care of themselves. And sometimes the more the better, coz that means more hands to work the farm or a higher chance that some will do well or marry into money.
Now this idea with a western hat on would appear abhorrent in the west coz having kids for these purposes would be seen akin to having 'chattels' for the sake of a return on investment. And arguably from what I've heard, many asian parents promote the dictum to their kids that: I brought you into this world and made many sacrifices to bring you up and now it's your duty to take care of me. It is what it is in lower socio economic areas of asia I guess and meets the practical requirements of family survival.
But sadly, I've also seen and heard many stories in Thailand, Philippines and Cambodia of parents sending their daughters to the city to work and send money home where they either don't want to know or know but ignore what work/service their daughters are doing to send money home. A case of 'turning a blind eye' for practical purposes..
Of course not all girls choose the bar life but at the same time, there are many others that don't have that choice for the purposes of supporting their parents and families. And sometimes the family can be very demanding and the girls are torn emotionally in the process. An aspect that even if I take my western hat off, I find very troublesome morally in my mind the way some parents use their kids in that manner.
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daeum_tnaot
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Re: Adults depending on their children - social criticism
We understand that Cambodia doesn't have a pension or social security, so it's somewhat understandable that other family members are the last resort.
The issue that we see is that people feel entitled to this and so they stop working even when they could still be productive. Children are seen as being a resource to exploit, and people have even mentioned this as a reason to have children (also mentioned by FreightDog's wife).
I also think that increasing life expectancies are part of it. 10 or 20 years ago people didn't live to be very old, 50 was perhaps not too young to retire. But now the life expectancy is 69, and that's including the effects of infant and child mortality (which skews the average lower). But many older people still cling to a practice or tradition that would've been more relevant in the 90s or 00s.
Older people also have much higher medical expenses than children do (or should if they are properly being cared for). Young adults are often put in the dilemma of deciding between shelling out large amounts for their sick parents or keeping some of their assets. Also complicated by the unreliable healthcare here.
Behind it all seems to be a lack of communication in which the younger generation cannot protest or provide feedback.
The issue that we see is that people feel entitled to this and so they stop working even when they could still be productive. Children are seen as being a resource to exploit, and people have even mentioned this as a reason to have children (also mentioned by FreightDog's wife).
I also think that increasing life expectancies are part of it. 10 or 20 years ago people didn't live to be very old, 50 was perhaps not too young to retire. But now the life expectancy is 69, and that's including the effects of infant and child mortality (which skews the average lower). But many older people still cling to a practice or tradition that would've been more relevant in the 90s or 00s.
Older people also have much higher medical expenses than children do (or should if they are properly being cared for). Young adults are often put in the dilemma of deciding between shelling out large amounts for their sick parents or keeping some of their assets. Also complicated by the unreliable healthcare here.
Behind it all seems to be a lack of communication in which the younger generation cannot protest or provide feedback.
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Clutch Cargo
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Re: Adults depending on their children - social criticism
Well, from the asian perspective in these situations I imagine it is a bit of a crap shoot. If your kids do well, then the parents have the option to retire early or keep going a longer. They then have a choice and some may/will or won't abuse that.
OTH other parents by misfortune won't have that option at all and have to keep working until very old and still rely on support from the kids.
I guess things will change but I've seen kid's obligations to the family as very strong.. Not uncommon for instances of the eldest child 'sacrificing' themselves for the sake of putting a younger sibling through university so that they don't have to experience the sort of life that they or their parents had to have.
OTH other parents by misfortune won't have that option at all and have to keep working until very old and still rely on support from the kids.
I guess things will change but I've seen kid's obligations to the family as very strong.. Not uncommon for instances of the eldest child 'sacrificing' themselves for the sake of putting a younger sibling through university so that they don't have to experience the sort of life that they or their parents had to have.
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