IraHayes wrote: ↑Mon May 25, 2020 11:05 am

Spigzy wrote: ↑Mon May 25, 2020 9:55 am Hong Kong was always screwed the moment the Brits honoured the 99 year lease & gave it back to China. It has taken a lot longer than I thought to come to the protests, etc. The time to make a stand & permanent claim to independence was 1997. Nobody had the guts then, they certainly don't now.

The reason why the protests didn't happen in 1984 or 1997 is that, quite simply, no-one expected the CCP to go back on its word. And now we have a whole generation of people who have grown up on stories and anecdotes of how life was like before the CCP took over and started reneging on the 1984 treaty.

That's misleading imo. Britain surrendered HK to China in 1984 without any consultation with the HK people, just as it surrendered Malaya to the Japanese, walking out of Penang and leaving the locals to fend for themselves. There was always huge discomfort in HK about the Chinese taking over, but it was what it was. China threatened to cut off water supply to the island at the end of the lease of the new territories, UK gave in without a fight, and that was that.

Britain has a huge amount of history to be proud of, but not everything it's done has been noble, and it would never have stood up to China, protests or no protests.

Foreigner wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 2:04 amBritain has a huge amount of history to be proud of, but not everything it's done has been noble, and it would never have stood up to China, protests or no protests.

I agree in part, but I think the history that they can be proud of is mostly confined to what happened within their UK borders (the irish will disagree strongly) and WW2.

Their colonial activities were terrible, but tbf several nations were worse, belgium, the netherlands, spain etc

fazur wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 5:44 am

Foreigner wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 2:04 amBritain has a huge amount of history to be proud of, but not everything it's done has been noble, and it would never have stood up to China, protests or no protests.

I agree in part, but I think the history that they can be proud of is mostly confined to what happened within their UK borders (the irish will disagree strongly) and WW2.

Their colonial activities were terrible, but tbf several nations were worse, belgium, the netherlands, spain etc

Why were Britain's colonial activities terrible ?

Foreigner wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 6:03 am

fazur wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 5:44 am

Foreigner wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 2:04 amBritain has a huge amount of history to be proud of, but not everything it's done has been noble, and it would never have stood up to China, protests or no protests.

I agree in part, but I think the history that they can be proud of is mostly confined to what happened within their UK borders (the irish will disagree strongly) and WW2.

Their colonial activities were terrible, but tbf several nations were worse, belgium, the netherlands, spain etc

Why were Britain's colonial activities terrible ?

ill assume your question is serious.

this is just in india:



google opium wars, northern island, african resources, drawing borders

generally:



most of this is not in texts provided by govt education systems

that doesn't mean it's not true

concentration camps in south africa after gold and diamonds discovered there?

fazur wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 11:16 am

Foreigner wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 6:03 am

fazur wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 5:44 am

Foreigner wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 2:04 amBritain has a huge amount of history to be proud of, but not everything it's done has been noble, and it would never have stood up to China, protests or no protests.

I agree in part, but I think the history that they can be proud of is mostly confined to what happened within their UK borders (the irish will disagree strongly) and WW2.

Their colonial activities were terrible, but tbf several nations were worse, belgium, the netherlands, spain etc

Why were Britain's colonial activities terrible ?

ill assume your question is serious.

this is just in india:



google opium wars, northern island, african resources, drawing borders

generally:



most of this is not in texts provided by govt education systems

that doesn't mean it's not true

concentration camps in south africa after gold and diamonds discovered there?

The Pakistan/India border was obviously a catastrophe, but I've never seen anyone come up with a less catastrophic solution.

The concentration camps in South Africa were also pretty shameful. There were other lowlights such as the Amritsar massacre (following the murder of a British woman). You missed out Israel by the way which of course the UK was partly responsible for.

I don't need to "google northern island" though. There are 2 (and more) sides to the Ireland story.

Britain was also probably the most progressive nation in the history of the world at that time. Despite being only a tiny island, they were the most advanced and developed country and society in the world, and it was completely normal to expand their influence as they did. In doing so they didn't seek to conquer countries, they sought to reach peaceful agreements with countries, which they often achieved. They brought vast improvements to most of the countries that became a part of the Empire. Hundreds of millions of subjects of the Empire around the world respected it and benefited from it, as Britain intended and sought to achieve. In many cases areas Britain left post-colonialization fell apart and have never been the same again.

Do you know wo said this and when ?

"We trust that the present occasion may tend to unite in bonds of close affection ourselves and our subjects; that from the highest to the humblest,
all may feel that under our rule the great principles of liberty, equity, and justice are secured to them; and to promote their happiness, to add to
their prosperity, and advance their welfare, are the ever present aims and objects of our Empire."

Barrack Obama maybe ? No, Queen Victoria 1877. It's written on a plaque in the Victoria Memorial in Calcutta.

Britain built the platform for the modern world. That should not be forgotten.

Foreigner wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 2:58 pm Britain built the platform for the modern world. That should not be forgotten.

yes, but we shouldn't be too harsh on them for it.

there's a wealth of information which doesn't agree with your point of view.

try accessing it with an open mind

fazur wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 3:06 pm

Foreigner wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 2:58 pm Britain built the platform for the modern world. That should not be forgotten.

yes, but we shouldn't be too harsh on them for it.

there's a wealth of information which doesn't agree with your point of view.

try accessing it with an open mind

There's a wealth of information about the disadvantages and hardships of women in western countries suffer and the lack of opportunities available to them in the 21st century. I can access such information with an open mind without agreeing with it, just as I can access information which seeks to re-write history and abuse the incredible achievements of the British Empire, without agreeing to it.

Foreigner wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 3:14 pmThere's a wealth of information about the disadvantages and hardships of women in western countries suffer and the lack of opportunities available to them in the 21st century. I can access such information with an open mind without agreeing with it, just as I can access information which seeks to re-write history and abuse the incredible achievements of the British Empire, without agreeing to it.

1. strawman argument; we're discussing the british empire and its colonial record

2. the opium wars, the irish famine, the concentration camps, the massacres in india, the theft of land and resources throughout africa, they were all obviously fictitious events

i see.

denial.

bye.

fazur wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 3:21 pm

Foreigner wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 3:14 pmThere's a wealth of information about the disadvantages and hardships of women in western countries suffer and the lack of opportunities available to them in the 21st century. I can access such information with an open mind without agreeing with it, just as I can access information which seeks to re-write history and abuse the incredible achievements of the British Empire, without agreeing to it.

1. strawman argument; we're discussing the british empire and its colonial record

2. the opium wars, the irish famine, the concentration camps, the massacres in india, the theft of land and resources throughout africa, they were all obviously fictitious events

i see.

denial.

bye.

Well if you say "strawman" you must be right. Why didn't you say that earlier ?

The Vikings were from Norway right ? Here's a bit about them:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viking_ra ... nd_tactics

"violence was a common feature of the Norse legal environment. This use of violence as an instrument regarding disputes was not limited to a man but extended to his kin"

"Honour could be shamed from mere insults, where Norsemen were legally allowed to react violently"

"Vikings would target monasteries along the coast, raid the towns for their booty, and destroy what was left...From their point of view, the Vikings were violent and evil heathens"

"The axe overtook the spear as the most common weapon in the turbulent Migration Age, which saw much internal raiding and warfare in Scandinavia. It was the first "siege weapon" for raiding enemy farm hauses, where a spear or a sword could do little damage...The axe had points on each tip of the blade where the curve tapered off. This allowed it to be used to hook an opponent, while also doubling as a thrusting weapon"

I can't find any quotes from their leader talking about "principles of liberty, equity and justice", but if I've missed them I'd be interested to see.