All Things Aviation

Yeah, that place out 'there'. Anything not really Cambodia related should go here.
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Brody
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Re: All Things Aviation

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Re: All Things Aviation

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Re: All Things Aviation

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Brody wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 7:28 am

Reckon these guys would have gone alright against the baloon threat... :bow:

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Re: All Things Aviation

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https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Energy ... 6&si=44594

Jet fuel made from wood heads toward production in Japan
Nippon Paper to lead bioethanol venture, aiming to start output in 2027

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Wood-based aviation fuel could contribute to lower airplane emissions without affecting global food supplies. © Reuters
YUI USUI and MAMORU TSUGE, Nikkei staff writersFebruary 3, 2023 05:58 JST

TOKYO -- A group of companies led by Nippon Paper Industries plans to produce bioethanol from wood for sustainable aviation fuel (SAF) in Japan, which has lagged in developing alternatives to petroleum for powering planes.

Investment in the project is expect to total up to tens of billions of yen (10 billion yen equals $78 million), with production to begin in 2027.

Sustainable aviation fuels, which can be made from waste cooking oil, plant matter and other materials, is said to emit 70% to 90% less carbon dioxide than standard jet fuel. The European Union is leading the way on regulations meant to drive widespread adoption of SAF by mid-century.

Nippon Paper, trading house Sumitomo Corp. and others intend to form a joint venture in 2024 to manufacture and sell bioethanol. Green Earth Institute, a Japanese company that has its own fermentation technology using microorganisms, also will invest in the venture.

The bioethanol will be produced at Nippon Paper's mills and sold to oil refiners that manufacture SAF. The partners target output of tens of thousands of kiloliters in 2027, enough to make about 10,000 kl of fuel.

The primary raw material will be wood cut from Nippon Paper's forests. The company owns roughly 90,000 hectares of forests in Japan, second only to rival papermaker Oji Holdings. Nippon Paper plans to increase the sustainability of its supply by planting seedlings that grow 50% faster and absorb 50% more carbon dioxide than conventional trees in logging areas.

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From left to right, wood chips are converted into sugars, fermented and turned into ethanol. (Photo obtained by Nikkei)

The venture will seek to lower SAF production costs, one of the barriers to wider adoption of plant-based jet fuels. Ordinary jet fuel is priced at about 100 yen per liter, while SAF costs several hundred to several thousand yen.

Japanese companies have tried using imported corn and other crops to make ethanol for SAF but struggled to secure stable supplies of the feedstocks. Critics say converting crops like corn and sugarcane to fuel can contribute to food insecurity. Building a supply chain for waste cooking oil also has proved difficult.

Other businesses want to enter the SAF market. Oji aims to start commercial production of fuel using trees from company-owned forests in fiscal 2030. It plans to start a test facility that can make 500 kl a year by fiscal 2024.

Japanese energy company Eneos is working with France's TotalEnergies to produce 400,000 kl yearly from waste cooking oil starting in 2025.

Regulators are pushing airlines toward greener fuels. EU lawmakers have approved a requirement that SAF account for 85% of all aviation fuels at airports within the bloc by 2050.

Japan's transport ministry aims for aviation fuel used by domestic airlines to consist of 10% SAF in 2030. This would equal an annual SAF demand of 1.71 million kl. Nippon Paper's targeted 10,000 kl would cover less than 1% of such demand.

All Nippon Airways aims to replace at least 10% of its fuel with SAF in fiscal 2030, with rival Japan Airlines targeting 10%.

"The movement toward domestic production is gaining momentum in Japan," JAL President Yuji Akasaka said. "We want to make sure we aren't left behind."
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Re: All Things Aviation

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Brody wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 7:28 am Spiggy edit ... Chinese Balloon, 'merica f*ck yeah! in a video
A question for you air heads - why on Earth (or in the sky) would you want to shoot this thing down in a million pieces, then try to recover it from the sea to try to ascertain what it was spying on etc.

Surely there had to be some way to take out the balloon & capture the capsule intact? It isn't like the balloon is travelling at mach 3, and it wasn't so high altitude that the US didn't have planes at it's disposal to do something more clever surely?

I'm thinking something capable of holding the weight snagging the strings (2 planes in combo?), THEN pop the balloon, descend to a level where something can handle the awkward cargo (get to the chopper, etc), disengage, bring home the bacon?

Also why take so long? If this thing was spying, it isn't like a Bond movie where the device stores all the data, the thing would be communicating straight to HQ via satellite or whatever.

I got questions!
Meum est propositum in taberna mori,
ut sint Guinness proxima morientis ori.
tunc cantabunt letius angelorum chori:
"Sit Deus propitius huic potatori."
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Re: All Things Aviation

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Spigzy wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 1:00 pm
A question for you air heads - why on Earth (or in the sky) would you want to shoot this thing down in a million pieces, then try to recover it from the sea to try to ascertain what it was spying on etc.

I got questions!
Airheads! Charming.

I think the answers are the stuff of a beer fueled debate on riverside. I got questions, too. Some not nearly so PC as others.

For one. They’re worried about shooting it down and the debris injuring someone. Well, it might take the focus of the other shootings and injuries making the news.
Hat, coat, exit…

But in all seriousness (as can be mustered at present)

It’s a sizeable balloon (well, it was) and a sizeable lump hanging from it. Anything capable of reaching that altitude is not going to be capable of moving slow enough to reach out and snip the wires.
They shot it down with a sparrow missile. To me, it seems rather like using a sledge hammer to deal with a single ant. I don’t know. Maybe they had a couple of missiles with Best before labels getting close.

That contraption underneath was largely power supply. Panels, some motors to influence steering. How much of the assembly was sensors is something the nerds will surely be interested in, once the squids have have handed it over. Estimates have the assembly at just under a ton, total mass. So, there’s little chance of catching it on its way down.
I’m guessing that the sniffing bit and any storage of the assembly might well be quite resilient. Akin to black box resilient. It’s only about a 10miles drop.

Why not shoot it down with the cannon? I’d have thought it might be cheaper. But then the aircraft would need to get much closer.
A slow deflation might have been useful, but maybe the flight path would have been too unpredictable. A quick drop into the ocean once it was no longer a big threat over land. Still, a largely intact but deflated balloon acting like a drag chute might have helped with cleanup.

Was there political pressure not to act? More political pressure to act. I’m sure the two parties will be armchair quarterbacking on this for some time.
I can imagine the indignant grandstanding-

“You’ve got to do something”
“Y’all ain’t dropping it on my state”

It was dumped just off the coast. Would that resolve any state jostling, and make it explicitly a federal/military matter?

When Blinken gets to china (if that happens?), I think it might be appropriate to hand the Chinese government an invoice-
Technical assistance,
manpower charges.
Costs of materials used. Missiles, 1.
Fuel surcharge
Storage fees

All in the name of assisting the Chinese with their balloon that inadvertently drifted off course.
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Re: All Things Aviation

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Spigzy
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Re: All Things Aviation

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Freightdog wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 11:25 pm
Spigzy wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 1:00 pm
A question for you air heads - why on Earth (or in the sky) would you want to shoot this thing down in a million pieces, then try to recover it from the sea to try to ascertain what it was spying on etc.

I got questions!
Airheads! Charming.

+[true story stuff]
I asked my 9 year old this morning how he would tackle it, little bugger came up with a cheeky solution ... how about 4 choppers in formation carrying a massive net that could catch the unit on the way down, and then you can use the jet to take it out with cannons/missiles, etc. Cheeky blighter!

The Americans put things in space & have probably more high altitude flights than the rest of the world combined x 100 so would know what popping it at that altitude would do, predict chopper location, and maybe even have 8, 16, 32 chopper set ups ready for any variance.

It did remind me of this guy though, continuing the aviation thread!

Meum est propositum in taberna mori,
ut sint Guinness proxima morientis ori.
tunc cantabunt letius angelorum chori:
"Sit Deus propitius huic potatori."
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Re: All Things Aviation

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Spigzy wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 9:27 am
Freightdog wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 11:25 pm
Spigzy wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 1:00 pm
A question for you air heads - why on Earth (or in the sky) would you want to shoot this thing down in a million pieces, then try to recover it from the sea to try to ascertain what it was spying on etc.

I got questions!
Airheads! Charming.

+[true story stuff]
I asked my 9 year old this morning how he would tackle it, little bugger came up with a cheeky solution ... how about 4 choppers in formation carrying a massive net that could catch the unit on the way down, and then you can use the jet to take it out with cannons/missiles, etc. Cheeky blighter!

The Americans put things in space & have probably more high altitude flights than the rest of the world combined x 100 so would know what popping it at that altitude would do, predict chopper location, and maybe even have 8, 16, 32 chopper set ups ready for any variance.

It did remind me of this guy though, continuing the aviation thread!

#1 He's completely bonkers and

#2, he came very close to being dead

Image

I can't say these feats of courage impress me. The risk/reward ratio is so far into the risk section it seems idiotic to even contemplate the project. I can understand a test pilot doing something very risky to achieve enormous gains for others: people, the aviation industry or new technology.

However, I just don't see any reward here beyond holding a world record in stupidity and egotism plus an hour of high-fiving your bros and being on Youtube with 500,000 'likes'.
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Spigzy
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Re: All Things Aviation

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Imagine the number of high fives if the USAF had caught that balloon in a net from that height though! :D
Meum est propositum in taberna mori,
ut sint Guinness proxima morientis ori.
tunc cantabunt letius angelorum chori:
"Sit Deus propitius huic potatori."
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