Indonesia: New Law Banning Unmarried Sex May Affect Travelers

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SternAAlbifrons
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Re: Indonesia new travel regulation

Post by SternAAlbifrons »

armchairlawyer wrote: Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:24 pm
SternAAlbifrons wrote: Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:52 pm This is all very true but don't forget our western culture

We shouldn't get too cocky on the subject of locking people up..
In any case, the point is we have stopped the barbarism in the modern age.
We have stopped some of our barbarism.
Yesterday.
So we can preach now?? and call others barbarians?

But yes, I do get your point Arm Chair, i just wanted to point out the hypocrisy of some of our own standards in this regard.
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Re: Indonesia: New Law Banning Unmarried Sex May Affect Travelers

Post by frank lee bent »

started seeing the young guys going around in Osama t-shirts around 1995 in Yogya, haven't been back since. I lived there for 4 years and loved it.
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Re: Indonesia new travel regulation

Post by armchairlawyer »

John Bingham wrote: Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:58 pm
armchairlawyer wrote: Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:24 pm I don't think adultery was against the law and cops did not beat up adulterers anywhere.
It's illegal here though..... :shock:
Too true, I forgot that!
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Re: Indonesia new travel regulation

Post by SternAAlbifrons »

armchairlawyer wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:57 am
John Bingham wrote: Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:58 pm
armchairlawyer wrote: Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:24 pm I don't think adultery was against the law and cops did not beat up adulterers anywhere.
It's illegal here though..... :shock:
Too true, I forgot that!
I did say in the recent past, but it turns out it is still in the present in some places -

Just decriminalised "yesterday"-
Adultery was decriminalised in England and Wales in 1857.
Among the last Western European countries to decriminalised adultery were Italy (1969), Malta (1973), Luxembourg (1974), France (1975), Spain (1978), Portugal (1982), Greece (1983), Belgium (1987), Switzerland (1989), and Austria (1997)

Still a criminal offence today -
As of 2019, adultery is a criminal offence in 19 states
In the U.S. military, adultery is a court-martial offence.

But anyway, i think you are quibbling. My point stands.
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Re: Indonesia: New Law Banning Unmarried Sex May Affect Travelers

Post by John Bingham »

It was only made illegal here in 2006.

https://www.phnompenhpost.com/national/ ... ultery-law
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Re: Indonesia: New Law Banning Unmarried Sex May Affect Travelers

Post by armchairlawyer »

Great data (from SternA)!
But if I may be permitted one more quibble, adultery and sex outside marriage are two different things. The new law in Indonesia will make all non-marital sex a crime, including young couples neither of whom are married. The laws in Western countries to which you refer only made it a crime for a married person to have sex with someone other than his/her spouse. I would guess that there were very few prosecutions in the countries mentioned in the decades before adultery was finally legalised (just as there are very few prosecutions for adultery in Cambodia now). In Indonesia, the law will permit sharia police to report young couples and have them imprisoned. This already happens in some Indonesian states such as Banda Aceh, under local sharia law. The new law will be federal.
Last edited by armchairlawyer on Fri Sep 20, 2019 2:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indonesia: New Law Banning Unmarried Sex May Affect Travelers

Post by armchairlawyer »

John Bingham wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2019 2:28 pm It was only made illegal here in 2006.

https://www.phnompenhpost.com/national/ ... ultery-law
Yes, and (as the PPP article says) it's fair to say the motivation was political rather than religious or societal.
This also from the article:
To date, no one has served any time for violating the article, and observers say that despite the international attention it garnered when it was passed, it has largely become an afterthought.

Sok Sam Oeun, director of the legal aid NGO Cambodian Defenders Project, said he could recall only one adultery case that went to trial, and his recollection of it was sketchy.

“I heard of only one case last year, and he didn’t get jail, only a suspended [sentence],” he said.


The Cambodian legal position on the ground is very different from what is proposed in Indonesia.
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Re: Indonesia: New Law Banning Unmarried Sex May Affect Travelers

Post by SternAAlbifrons »

armchairlawyer wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2019 2:32 pm Great data (from SternA)!
But if I may be permitted one more quibble, adultery and sex outside marriage are two different things. The new law in Indonesia will make all non-marital sex a crime,
I concede much of your argument is correct, but you are still dodging my point. (imo :) )
Can we be clear on one thing - do you, or not, deny
that there is an element of stinking hypocrisy in our preaching and finger pointing at "less enlightened" societies?
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Re: Indonesia: New Law Banning Unmarried Sex May Affect Travelers

Post by armchairlawyer »

SternAAlbifrons wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2019 3:00 pm
armchairlawyer wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2019 2:32 pm Great data (from SternA)!
But if I may be permitted one more quibble, adultery and sex outside marriage are two different things. The new law in Indonesia will make all non-marital sex a crime,
I concede much of your argument is correct, but you are still dodging my point. (imo :) )
Can we be clear on one thing - do you, or not, deny
that there is an element of stinking hypocrisy in our preaching and finger pointing at "less enlightened" societies?
No I cannot deny that because no society is perfect. But I do think that we have valid grounds to point out the lack of individual freedoms in some countries (I won't name names). Anyone from a common law jurisdiction can proudly point to democratic elections, the separation of powers, constitutional rights, the rule of law (including Horace Rumpole's golden thread of innocent until proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt). To my mind the major failing of recent years in the West has been economic, namely the sharp increase in inequality of wealth caused the actions of central banks.
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Re: Indonesia: New Law Banning Unmarried Sex May Affect Travelers

Post by John Bingham »

armchairlawyer wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2019 2:39 pm Yes, and (as the PPP article says) it's fair to say the motivation was political...
Sure, I remember the particular case clearly.
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