Bitte_Kein_Lexus wrote: ↑Sat Jul 06, 2019 10:18 pm

SternAAlbifrons wrote: We could say "Thank God for the French" and their scholarship - but then we remember that scholarship was for the purpose of wholesale plunder - both by academia and by individuals.

How exactly did the French plunder? I don't think they actually have that much Khmer art in French museums (though I've never actually been to the Louvres).

How?

"Although the protectorate status ensured Cambodia’s territorial integrity remained intact against its neighbors, France largely controlled Cambodia’s internal and external affairs as a result. Cambodia was designated as a colonie d’exploitation (colony of economic exploitation).

The French were infatuated with the temples and ruins of the ancient Khmer Empire, and also sought to extend the boundaries of France’s national heritage, or patrimoine. The ancient monuments and artifacts brought back to France would be incorporated into France’s cultural and architectural legacy. Through persuasion, diplomacy, coercion, and deception, French explorers, administrators, scholars, and soldiers gained access to the temples and ruins and acquired numerous cultural artifacts from Angkor.

The first collection of Khmer artifacts was from the expeditions of French naval officer Louis Delaporte, who was inspired with the idea of “enriching our national museum with some of these artistic treasures.” With the approval and support of the French government, Delaporte led an expedition in 1873 with the aim of bringing back Khmer artifacts to be exhibited in France – some 70 statues were removed and taken. Featured at the 1878 l’Exposition Universelle, his collection later formed the Paris Musée Indochinois at the Palais de Trocadéro in 1882.

Other French explorers continued the trend, such as Étienne Aymonier, who led three expeditions in Asia from 1882 to 1885. The collection grew with contributions from colonial administrators, such as the Résident supérieur du Cambodge (France’s official representative in Cambodia). Today, these collections can be found in the Guimet Museum in Paris.

Full text below
https://thediplomat.com/2018/12/its-tim ... artifacts/

BKL, We could have an argument along the lines of "Amazon cafe" V. "Naked selfies by french tourist at Ankor Wat"
- but course it is not that simplistic. We would probably agree on many aspects of this vexed issue.

SternAAlbifrons wrote: ↑Sun Jul 07, 2019 2:54 am Other French explorers continued the trend, such as Étienne Aymonier, who led three expeditions in Asia from 1882 to 1885. The collection grew with contributions from colonial administrators, such as the Résident supérieur du Cambodge (France’s official representative in Cambodia). Today, these collections can be found in the Guimet Museum in Paris.

BKL, We could have an argument along the lines of "Amazon cafe" V. "Naked selfies by french tourist at Ankor Wat"
- but course it is not that simplistic. We would probably agree on many aspects of this vexed issue.

Interesting. Didn't know most of it ended up at the Guimet. I do think we basically agree Stern, things are always nuanced. I just find it's also a bit simplistic to call Delaporte a plunderer, as he did more than most to widen the western world's knowledge and appreciation of Khmer art, which he highly respected. I won't debate that the way some of these items were taken by colonizers was unscrupulous at best. That's why I'm happy that the Japanese woman is returning the items. She's doing what's right. However, we both know there's something to be said about places like the British Museum/Louvre/Hermitage and so on. A great many of the priceless objects from all over the world found in those museums wouldn't have survived the past 150-200 years had it not been for such establishments. Many were seen as bearing little value by their original owners. We both know what may very well have happened to these 70+ statues had they remained in Cambodia during the war(s). Locals were looting Preah Kanh temple in Preah Vihear up till 2000+. Of course, I fully understand why Egypt, Greece, Irak, Chile and so on want some items back. However, I also understand why these museums want to keep them as well, and I'm capable of appreciating that such cultural heritage remained protected and relatively safe even during European wars (think of the famed winged Nike from Samothrace during WW2):


I'm not trying to defend colonialism or the appropriation of such priceless items, which in our time appears like downright thievery. However, the French helped bring modern archaeology to Cambodia, proper documentation methods, rebuilt crumbled temples and so on. What's necessary now is for proper funding of local museums and training for their staff. Not sure if there's a new museum in SR, but that big painting display thing always seemed like a big waste to me.

Regarding the Amazon thing: I'm referring to the Amazon Cafe which opened on the grounds of the National Archives. You can rest assured that someone made/is making money on that deal. Schools routinely rent out space to private companies (astroturf soccer pitches in TK, for example, or renting out fields in BKK). The money made off these leases obviously doesn't go to improving the NA or individual schools. The National Museum in PP is a joke even by developing country standards. As every little bit of public land is sold off, Ministries sent to the outskirts of town, all green space is eliminated and so forth, I don't think for one second that the current authorities always prioritize "what's right", especially when it comes to the preservation, funding and displaying of their historical heritage. Sure, Angkor Wat is an outdoor museum and they'll always clamor about it, but that's always the main focus to the detriment of smaller objects or items from other periods, thus my comment of the Japanese apparently taking great care in the items.

Yes BKL, i agree, the french also contributed much to cambodian scholarship, and still do.
I am a big admirer of Delaporte, and his fellow plunderer Garnier, for their Mekong expedition alone. An astonishing epic.

Let me know with plenty of advance if you plan on visiting the Guimet, I will have to save up if i am going to join you.
I would love to see these returned pieces too.

SternAAlbifrons wrote:Yes BKL, i agree, the french also contributed much to cambodian scholarship, and still do.
I am a big admirer of Delaporte, and his fellow plunderer Garnier, for their Mekong expedition alone. An astonishing epic.

Have you ever read Osborne's "River Road to China: The Mekong River Expedition, 1866–1873"? If not, it's truly epic. One can't help but feel a sense of adventure and awe at the undertaking. Tons of weird and funny stories.
I also picked up an interesting book called Elephant Train (PP to Bangkok 1871) a few months back. Similarly interesting, but it's all first-hand accounts of some French guys tagged along a Royal elephant caravan to Bangkok. Interesting to read the guy's observations. Some are quite astute and ring true, even today, while others reveal the colonial thinking of the time. Still a great read and puts you in a state of wonder, especially if you're familiar with the area the go through (which usually still exist). What's hilarious is that the Filipino cook that comes with them is the same guy that was on Lagrée's expedition. Several Vietnamese, Cambodians and others were part of it, but of course their identities aren't discussed or well-known, but you can't help but think of everything they went though.

Bitte_Kein_Lexus wrote: ↑Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:50 pm

SternAAlbifrons wrote:Yes BKL, i agree, the french also contributed much to cambodian scholarship, and still do.
I am a big admirer of Delaporte, and his fellow plunderer Garnier, for their Mekong expedition alone. An astonishing epic.

Have you ever read Osborne's "River Road to China: The Mekong River Expedition, 1866–1873"? If not, it's truly epic. One can't help but feel a sense of adventure and awe at the undertaking. Tons of weird and funny stories.
I also picked up an interesting book called Elephant Train (PP to Bangkok 1871) a few months back. Similarly interesting, but it's all first-hand accounts of some French guys tagged along a Royal elephant caravan to Bangkok. Interesting to read the guy's observations. Some are quite astute and ring true, even today, while others reveal the colonial thinking of the time. Still a great read and puts you in a state of wonder, especially if you're familiar with the area the go through (which usually still exist). What's hilarious is that the Filipino cook that comes with them is the same guy that was on Lagrée's expedition. Several Vietnamese, Cambodians and others were part of it, but of course their identities aren't discussed or well-known, but you can't help but think of everything they went though.

Yes, "River Road to China" is fab. I'll keep an eye open for "Elephant Road"
Thanks to J Bingham too, for his post on Andre Malraux. Sounds like an interesting character.

Talking about Milton Osborne, complex characters and "bad frenchman" - have you read
Gregor Muller's "The Bad Frenchman"?
The story of false Count and quintessential carpetbagger, Thomas-Caraman.
Below is the opening to Milton Osbourne's review of this book from the PP Post 2008 - and a link to the full article.

Osborne says a couple of times how erudite, and how readable this book is. I found it to be really hard going because of the stilted, academic's style of writing - but persisted because it is such a great story and a great piece of scholarship.
Out in paperback, and probably photocopy now. So no longer need pay $135.

"Gregor Muller's fascinating account of Cambodia's 'bad Frenchmen' in the nineteenth
century is one of the more remarkable books to deal with the history of the kingdom
after the French established their protectorate in 1863." - Osborne
Full review;
https://www.phnompenhpost.com/national/ ... n-cambodia