Tarndog wrote: ↑Sun May 19, 2019 11:07 am

xandreu wrote: ↑Sat May 04, 2019 2:01 pm
I hate to sound like the bleeding liberal, but there's some truth in the fact that society itself has to take some responsibility for people ending up like that.

Then you should be pleased. Society has taken responsibility and arranged for them to get training and re-education. Now, what will they do with that opportunity? Make the most of it?? I guaran-fucking-tee you they won't.

So no longer will it be society's responsibility. They will have wasted the opportunity with no one else to blame.

Just like anywhere else in the world, equal opportunity does not equal equal outcome. Some people will do more with the same opportunity than others. These people don't want to provide their own input to make their lives better. They want to be GIVEN equal outcome. Some people can't be helped.
Just how it is.

Tarndog wrote: ↑Sun May 19, 2019 11:07 am

xandreu wrote: ↑Sat May 04, 2019 2:01 pm
I hate to sound like the bleeding liberal, but there's some truth in the fact that society itself has to take some responsibility for people ending up like that.

Then you should be pleased. Society has taken responsibility and arranged for them to get training and re-education. Now, what will they do with that opportunity? Make the most of it?? I guaran-fucking-tee you they won't.

So no longer will it be society's responsibility. They will have wasted the opportunity with no one else to blame.

Just like anywhere else in the world, equal opportunity does not equal equal outcome. Some people will do more with the same opportunity than others. These people don't want to provide their own input to make their lives better. They want to be GIVEN equal outcome. Some people can't be helped.
Just how it is.

xandreu wrote: ↑Sun May 19, 2019 8:36 pm

Tarndog wrote: ↑Sun May 19, 2019 11:07 am

xandreu wrote: ↑Sat May 04, 2019 2:01 pm
I hate to sound like the bleeding liberal, but there's some truth in the fact that society itself has to take some responsibility for people ending up like that.

Then you should be pleased. Society has taken responsibility and arranged for them to get training and re-education. Now, what will they do with that opportunity? Make the most of it?? I guaran-fucking-tee you they won't.

So no longer will it be society's responsibility. They will have wasted the opportunity with no one else to blame.

Just like anywhere else in the world, equal opportunity does not equal equal outcome. Some people will do more with the same opportunity than others. These people don't want to provide their own input to make their lives better. They want to be GIVEN equal outcome. Some people can't be helped.
Just how it is.

Oh how I'd love to live in your world. Wouldn't we all? A world where everything is black or white. Good or bad. Up or down. Ones or zeros. A very binary view of the world.

You're making the classic mistake of looking at these very complex, multifaceted problems through privileged and educated eyes. And why wouldn't you? Your privileged and educated life is all you've ever known. Therefore, your opinions, your thought processes, your actions (and the actions of those around you) and the way you view the world are proper and correct, and anyone who deviates from this must somehow be sub-human.

All you've ever known couldn't possibly be further from what THESE people have ever known. These people weren't afforded the education you received. They probably weren't afforded any education whatsoever. All THEY'VE ever known is poverty, crime, hunger and survival on a level you've only ever experience in your worst nightmares.

As I said in my original post, we are ALL a product of our own individual circumstance. Simply saying to someone who's only ever know a life like this "Just do this, just do that, and your life will be better" is such a massive oversimplification, it's laughable.

Giving these people training and re-education is clearly a step in the right direction, but it's only the first step, and it's success depends on the quality of training and re-education they receive. Often, this approach, as I've pointed out, originates from those who have no idea what these people have been through, and have no understanding of what these people have now accepted as 'normalized behavior'.

When the only way you've ever know how to survive is to steal and scavenge for food. When all you've ever known since you were a little kid to escape your horrific life , even for brief periods, is to take drugs, when all you've ever known of the world since you were a little child was people who prey on you and use you for their own advantage, it's understandable that it takes a little more than a bit of 'training and re-education' to get you to change your ways.

Assuming that they should somehow be grateful for the crumbs of 're-education' someone throws at them, and then blaming them if it doesn't work first time, is plain absurd.

I'll say it again. These people are products of their circumstances. In the exact same way we all are. Would any of us be the people we are today if we had been born into the circumstances these people were?

More understanding and less judgment goes a long way in tackling these issues.