Here's the situation:

I want to come to Cambodia to possibly retire. I'm looking around on Google and I find a school in the provinces that is looking for volunteers. I figure that this is a great way to introduce myself to the country and so I start correspondence.

I inquire with them as to what kind of visa to get. A somewhat cryptic answer is offered but it's made clear that they have volunteers who regularly do visa runs as a solution and also that no facilities exist in the province to get or extend my own visa. So in other words I'm on my own.

So I arrive in the big city, get the E visa, and then move to extend it for one year. I explain to the agency that I'm here to volunteer and ask which visa I should get. I'm initially told it needs to be a EB visa but that they'll inquire further and on the subsequent visit I'm told an ER will suffice provided I'm just volunteering and that this isn't a real job. Interestingly this is the visit where I hand over the cash and three days later I have a one-year ER and the day after that I'm off to the provinces.

Now I'm here and the school and I are moving along in the process and we hit the snag: I was given bad information, both by the school itself and by the travel agency. Visa runs are no longer possible for volunteers; that was old information. The government is apparently cracking down on volunteers who don't have work permits. The fine for first-time violators is 1M riel. I need a EB and I need a work permit.

The school realizes they gave me bad information and are trying to accommodate me by pushing their agency to issue me a work permit on my ER. They seem to think it's possible. My concern though is that, even if it is possible, if there is any constant to immigration departments the world over (and I've dealt with four immigration regimes now) it is that it is the rule of the immigration officer who is holding your passport that matters, and that the mere sight of a work permit together with a ER visa could at some future date put me on the shit list and complicate my life extraordinarily.

I could of course just wave bye-bye to the cash spent for the one-year ER and let the school buy my EB and work permit but they only want to pay half. Of course my concern is not only paying for a visa twice but also what happens if it doesn't work out at the school in a few weeks? Pay for another one-year ER? Yeah, right.

And then there's the not-too-fantastic idea that Cambodia is set to change up the rules for ER visa again and tighten the requirements. Existing ER holders will very likely be grandfathered into the new system without having to perform medical certifications or provide embassy-signed letters attesting to financial solvency. Giving up today's ER could be a particularly aggravating mistake over the long run.

I am otherwise a great fit for this school. It is an entirely legit operation and they shouldn't be penalized because they haven't fully mastered interpreting the whims of Immigration. On the other hand, maybe the hard lesson is what is in order to see them get their act together?

I sit here literally undecided as to what to do. Any thoughts are welcome.

oopsfermi wrote: ↑Tue Sep 25, 2018 3:25 pm Here's the situation:

I want to come to Cambodia to possibly retire. I'm looking around on Google and I find a school in the provinces that is looking for volunteers. I figure that this is a great way to introduce myself to the country and so I start correspondence.

I inquire with them as to what kind of visa to get. A somewhat cryptic answer is offered but it's made clear that they have volunteers who regularly do visa runs as a solution and also that no facilities exist in the province to get or extend my own visa. So in other words I'm on my own.

So I arrive in the big city, get the E visa, and then move to extend it for one year. I explain to the agency that I'm here to volunteer and ask which visa I should get. I'm initially told it needs to be a EB visa but that they'll inquire further and on the subsequent visit I'm told an ER will suffice provided I'm just volunteering and that this isn't a real job. Interestingly this is the visit where I hand over the cash and three days later I have a one-year ER and the day after that I'm off to the provinces.

Now I'm here and the school and I are moving along in the process and we hit the snag: I was given bad information, both by the school itself and by the travel agency. Visa runs are no longer possible for volunteers; that was old information. The government is apparently cracking down on volunteers who don't have work permits. The fine for first-time violators is 1M riel. I need a EB and I need a work permit.

"Volunteer" is a fairly loose term here, ranging from Kampot artists whose life's work is to save rats from the rat catcher to professional/technical specialists on 2-3 year paid 'volunteer' placements within local NGOs and government departments via a host organisation like VSO.

If the school is registered as an NGO, they may be able to discuss the issue with MoFA and Immigration. International NGO staff/volunteers are eligible for B or C visas (can't recall which), which is free, though not sure if B/C holders are obliged to get work permits. If they're not a registered NGO and are accepting volunteers, they're probably not as legit as they appear.

The school realizes they gave me bad information and are trying to accommodate me by pushing their agency to issue me a work permit on my ER. They seem to think it's possible. My concern though is that, even if it is possible, if there is any constant to immigration departments the world over (and I've dealt with four immigration regimes now) it is that it is the rule of the immigration officer who is holding your passport that matters, and that the mere sight of a work permit together with a ER visa could at some future date put me on the shit list and complicate my life extraordinarily.

Immigration 'accidentally' seeing your ER visa and a work permit is simply not going to happen. You wouldn't even get a work permit with an ER visa. The ER visa extension is specifically for people who will not work, and will not be accepted during a WP application.

I could of course just wave bye-bye to the cash spent for the one-year ER and let the school buy my EB and work permit but they only want to pay half. Of course my concern is not only paying for a visa twice but also what happens if it doesn't work out at the school in a few weeks? Pay for another one-year ER? Yeah, right.

It's not so simple to just have a visa voided and get a new one, and then do it again in a few weeks. No matter what visa extension you have, it remains valid for the period stamped on it, regardless of whether you're volunteering or sitting around drinking pints.

And then there's the not-too-fantastic idea that Cambodia is set to change up the rules for ER visa again and tighten the requirements. Existing ER holders will very likely be grandfathered into the new system without having to perform medical certifications or provide embassy-signed letters attesting to financial solvency. Giving up today's ER could be a particularly aggravating mistake over the long run.

The ER visa is relatively new, and is part of the 'new system'. I haven't heard of any newer system whereby the applicant doesn't have to provide at least proof of income. If you are eligible now (as in can provide proof of income and pass a medical), there's no reason why you wouldn't be eligible again later, after having had a EB visa extension.

I am otherwise a great fit for this school. It is an entirely legit operation and they shouldn't be penalized because they haven't fully mastered interpreting the whims of Immigration. On the other hand, maybe the hard lesson is what is in order to see them get their act together?

I sit here literally undecided as to what to do. Any thoughts are welcome.

I wouldn't do anything until you've got concrete answer from Immigration (via the school's representative) that you are not allowed to volunteer on a retirement visa. I suspect it's true, but I would wait for clarification that ER visa extension holders cannot 'do work', even for no pay.

Otherwise, continue volunteering on the ER visa, ensure the school makes no mention of you in any capacity, and make yourself scarce the days Immigration and sangkat police come to do their foreign quota checks.

epidemiks wrote: ↑Tue Sep 25, 2018 3:48 pm "Volunteer" is a fairly loose term here, ranging from Kampot artists whose life's work is to save rats from the rat catcher to professional/technical specialists on 2-3 year paid 'volunteer' placements within local NGOs and government departments via a host organisation like VSO.

If the school is registered as an NGO, they may be able to discuss the issue with MoFA and Immigration. International NGO staff/volunteers are eligible for B or C visas (can't recall which), which is free, though not sure if B/C holders are obliged to get work permits. If they're not a registered NGO and are accepting volunteers, they're probably not as legit as they appear.

The school is clearly a Cambodian initiative and it's legit insofar as it has students and they and their parents seem happy with it.

I think they got away with being very informal for a very long time and it was only recently that they got busted for an undocumented volunteer, and so now are dotting every i and crossing every t. Why I couldn't get the correct information from the outset remains a question of course.

epidemiks wrote: ↑Tue Sep 25, 2018 3:48 pm Immigration 'accidentally' seeing your ER visa and a work permit is simply not going to happen. You wouldn't even get a work permit with an ER visa. The ER visa extension is specifically for people who will not work, and will not be accepted during a WP application.

epidemiks wrote: ↑Tue Sep 25, 2018 3:48 pm It's not so simple to just have a visa voided and get a new one, and then do it again in a few weeks. No matter what visa extension you have, it remains valid for the period stamped on it, regardless of whether you're volunteering or sitting around drinking pints.

So it sounds like this simply isn't going to happen. The silver lining is I can't screw up my visa, but I feel bad for the school.

epidemiks wrote: ↑Tue Sep 25, 2018 3:48 pm The ER visa is relatively new, and is part of the 'new system'. I haven't heard of any newer system whereby the applicant doesn't have to provide at least proof of income. If you are eligible now (as in can provide proof of income and pass a medical), there's no reason why you wouldn't be eligible again later, after having had a EB visa extension.

I'm over 55 and from what I've read the only qualification necessary is exactly that. I simply handed over my passport and $3xx and got the visa. If you're a veteran of Thailand's O-A process or the Philippines 13A you can only marvel at how audaciously simple that is and I want to keep it that way.

Retirement visas are a special breed in that you can't very well change the rules at a later date and apply them retroactively to existing holders. Even the Phils recognizes this; look at their SRRV program, there must be at least a dozen different categories of SRRV holders today based simply on when they joined that program. Retirees needs that assurance that the rug won't get pulled out from under them because hey, we're getting old.

epidemiks wrote: ↑Tue Sep 25, 2018 3:48 pm I wouldn't do anything until you've got concrete answer from Immigration (via the school's representative) that you are not allowed to volunteer on a retirement visa. I suspect it's true, but I would wait for clarification that ER visa extension holders cannot 'do work', even for no pay.

I agree. And I think that's the news I'm going to get tomorrow. I was hoping that maybe there was a problem with my logic on this but sometimes things get broken and there's no fixing it.

epidemiks wrote: ↑Tue Sep 25, 2018 3:48 pm Otherwise, continue volunteering on the ER visa, ensure the school makes no mention of you in any capacity, and make yourself scarce the days Immigration and sangkat police come to do their foreign quota checks.

I'd be willing to do this but the school administrator won't be.

Thanks for the fast and what I think is a correct reply.

Cheers Epidemiks, well done, saved me from replying

Well... the school is saying they can do it (get me a work permit on a ER visa).

Is it possible that they're right? I can't find anything authoritative online that says that the ER is incompatible with a work permit. Doesn't it make sense that Cambodia would want to give retirees the option of doing work? That the EB is meant for people who must get the work permit to stay long-term but that retirees having already received the permission to stay long-term have the option of working provided that a work permit is obtained?

I'm currently in the process of getting a WP whilst on an ER visa. Should know in a couple of days.

Keep in mind that it's not illegal to get (buy) a WP. However, with or without a WP, you cannot work on an ER. You would be expected to change your visa to EB sooner rather than later.

Username Taken wrote: ↑Wed Sep 26, 2018 7:05 pm However, with or without a WP, you cannot work on an ER.

Or is it, you cannot work without a work permit, and most people who get work permits do so using EB visas because that's what that visa was designed for. And then the conventional wisdom emerges that says you can't work on ER, because people who qualify for ER don't need to work.

If A then B. Ok.

If not A then not B? No, not necessarily.

They don't give work permits without the right visa, yes? So if I get a work permit as a ER holder, WTF? Seriously, where's the font button, cause I want to do a really big WTF right now.

At least in the Phils and as screwed up as that place is you could always get somebody to point you to a source regulation somewhere. Of course they use English for that sort of shit over there. Is the deal here that the regs are in Khmer? Well of course they would be, wouldn't they. But even then I have half a chance of knowing which way to go based on a Google Translate.

Fuck my life I hate this shit.

ER (Retirement) EOS = Employment Not Permitted

Source: The formalities on permission for non-immigrant foreigners to enter, exit and stay in Cambodia, Sub-Decree № 123, dated 10 June 2016

"and most people who get work permits do so using EB visas"

No. It's the other way around, ' . . . and most people who get EB visas do so using work permits'.


You'd probably not like Thailand either. You're not even allowed to paint your own house, because your doing a job a Thai could do.

PSD-Kiwi wrote: ↑Wed Sep 26, 2018 7:51 pm ER (Retirement) EOS = Employment Not Permitted

Source: The formalities on permission for non-immigrant foreigners to enter, exit and stay in Cambodia, Sub-Decree № 123, dated 10 June 2016

Ok that was sufficient meat to perform a halfway decent search.

I find two good links: https://www.dfdl.com/resources/legal-an ... july-2016/ and http://www.cambodianinterpreter.org/wp- ... d-2018.pdf.

Neither explicitly states that employment is forbidden under an ER. From the first link:

Previously, when a Visa E was extended for long-term stay, the Visa E holder would obtain a general Visa E. However, under Sub Decree 123, when being extended, an Ordinary Visa (E) is specifically classified into various types according to the purpose of the stay. For instance, the relevant visa extension types for business related purposes are Visa EB (for employees/labourers or merchants), Visa EG (for general non-immigration foreigners), Visa EP (for non-immigrant foreigners who wish to study business), Visa ER (for non-immigrant foreigners who are retired), Visa ET (for technical personnel) and Visa E1EX, E2EX and E3EX (for merchants who obtain Visa E1, E2 and E3 in accordance with the government’s policy). This Sub-Decree also specifies clearer requirements for the documents required to be submitted for each type of visa.

It's a given that the ER is intended for retirement but then too work isn't being explicitly forbidden anywhere I can see.

From the better link we have:

16.2 Foreign Employees
The employment of foreign nationals is regulated by the Labour Law. Only foreigners satisfying the
following conditions may be lawfully employed;
 hold a work permit issued by the MLVT;
 have entered Cambodia legally;
 have the right to reside in Cambodia;
 hold a valid passport;
 have a good reputation and good behavior;
 have the physical qualifications for the job; and
 have no communicable diseases.

Being here on an ER doesn't contradict any of that.

Do you see what I'm getting at? Maybe the EB is the visa vehicle whose intent to provide a basis for the work permit, but the work permit isn't exclusive to the EB. The ER is an unusual case for the work permit but it isn't an impossible one.

In any case thank you!

Also:

WTF