I suppose all those people criticizing Oxfam are prigs too?
I do hope they go after the UN next.

Abc123 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:55 am I suppose all those people criticizing Oxfam are prigs too?
I do hope they go after the UN next.

Like the Guardian?

Martin Rowson on Oxfam sexual abuse scandal

Jamie_Lambo wrote: ↑Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:12 am

pczz wrote: ↑Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:31 am

Jamie_Lambo wrote: ↑Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:37 am

pczz wrote: ↑Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:17 pm

John Bingham wrote: ↑Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:58 pm

There are "lady-bars" on Riverside? I never noticed any, where are they? The riverside is pretty sleazy, loads of beggars on the sidewalks and then a very sketchy scene across by the river itself. Glue-sniffers, homeless people with serious mental problems etc, but as far as I could ever work out it seems to be dominated by restaurants rather than bars. And I don't see where your moral indignation is coming from, or why you are assuming that someone who comments on local mores must be a total sleaze themselves. Are you projecting?

Not really john. I was referring to riverside the area. As far as I know the road you are referring to is called Sisowath Quay. I was responding to a post which was in an expat forum where many expats extol the virtues of the sex trade pointing a finger at khmers karaoke. Just seems a bit pot calling kettle black, or maybe using the locals behavior as an excuse for their own. By all means declare the virtues of hookers if you want, eve declare why your think its a good thing. but don't just say "well I can do it because the locals can"

i think you missed the initial point,
they were blaming the civilized west for cambodians sex slavery,
when most of the girls being sex trafficked into the sex trade here are aimed at Asian clientele, whether it be KTV's, "Massage Joints", Brothels,
Places most westerners, espesh the ones that frequent the riverside area, dont go or even know about,
the girls that work in the bars around riverside are usually there through choice and not obliged to go sleep with customers

take your point, but I think many of the girls are still forced into the game by Greedy mums, poverty, sick relatives, running away from the village motivate a lot.

exactly, but how is the west to blame?
sure some girls are able to go work in hostess bars instead of being sold into brothels,
and those hostess bars in thailand and cambodia are usualy aimed at foreign customers,
but you dont get hostess bars in the west, they are an Asian invention originally aimed at Asian Clientele

so im still trying to see how the west is getting the blame for Cambodias Sex/Human Trafficking crisis as reported in the article

No, we have lap dancing clubs, strip joints and so on. In many peoples minds hostess bars and gogo bars did not exist before the Vietnam war era when the industry exploded to service servicemen from the west (ie Australia dna America) and after the war it was sustained by tourists from the west. Seriously, how many bars would there be on 136 if it wasn't for western tourists? or in pattaya? how many Cambodians do you see in bars in136 or thais in pattaya? All those thoudands of girls can only be in the sex trade because of the western customers. if westernere wewre banned from entering Cambodia and Thailand the industry would shrink dramatically, so in that sense we are guilty of providing the customers. Without us, these girls would have to find another way of earning a living. Of course the Chinese will take up some of the slack with other Asian countries, but tis still mostly westerners in those areas. pattaya and angeles city were pretty much created to cater for troops

pczz wrote: ↑Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:17 pm

Jamie_Lambo wrote: ↑Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:12 am

pczz wrote: ↑Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:31 am

Jamie_Lambo wrote: ↑Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:37 am

pczz wrote: ↑Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:17 pm
Not really john. I was referring to riverside the area. As far as I know the road you are referring to is called Sisowath Quay. I was responding to a post which was in an expat forum where many expats extol the virtues of the sex trade pointing a finger at khmers karaoke. Just seems a bit pot calling kettle black, or maybe using the locals behavior as an excuse for their own. By all means declare the virtues of hookers if you want, eve declare why your think its a good thing. but don't just say "well I can do it because the locals can"

i think you missed the initial point,
they were blaming the civilized west for cambodians sex slavery,
when most of the girls being sex trafficked into the sex trade here are aimed at Asian clientele, whether it be KTV's, "Massage Joints", Brothels,
Places most westerners, espesh the ones that frequent the riverside area, dont go or even know about,
the girls that work in the bars around riverside are usually there through choice and not obliged to go sleep with customers

take your point, but I think many of the girls are still forced into the game by Greedy mums, poverty, sick relatives, running away from the village motivate a lot.

exactly, but how is the west to blame?
sure some girls are able to go work in hostess bars instead of being sold into brothels,
and those hostess bars in thailand and cambodia are usualy aimed at foreign customers,
but you dont get hostess bars in the west, they are an Asian invention originally aimed at Asian Clientele

so im still trying to see how the west is getting the blame for Cambodias Sex/Human Trafficking crisis as reported in the article

No, we have lap dancing clubs, strip joints and so on. In many peoples minds hostess bars and gogo bars did not exist before the Vietnam war era when the industry exploded to service servicemen from the west (ie Australia dna America) and after the war it was sustained by tourists from the west. Seriously, how many bars would there be on 136 if it wasn't for western tourists? or in pattaya? how many Cambodians do you see in bars in136 or thais in pattaya? All those thoudands of girls can only be in the sex trade because of the western customers. if westernere wewre banned from entering Cambodia and Thailand the industry would shrink dramatically, so in that sense we are guilty of providing the customers. Without us, these girls would have to find another way of earning a living. Of course the Chinese will take up some of the slack with other Asian countries, but tis still mostly westerners in those areas. pattaya and angeles city were pretty much created to cater for troops

@pczz, so the Cambodian sex trafficking/slave trade stems from the west having strip and lap dancing clubs? really?
you do know Sex slavery and trafficking has been a thing in Asia long before the modern strip joints and lapdancing clubs in the West, or the Hostess bars in the East

"During the Chinese domination of Vietnam, Vietnamese girls were sold as sex slaves to the Chinese. A large trade developed where the native girls of Vietnam were enslaved and brought north to the Chinese. Southern Yue girls were sexually eroticized in Chinese literature and in poems written by Chinese who were exiled to the south."

"Karayuki-san was the name given to Japanese girls and women in the late 19th and early 20th centuries who were trafficked from poverty-stricken agricultural prefectures in Japan to destinations in East Asia, Southeast Asia, Siberia (Russian Far East), Manchuria, and British India to serve as prostitutes."

"Mui tsai which means "little sister" in Cantonese, describes young Chinese women who worked as domestic servants in China, or in brothels or affluent Chinese households in traditional Chinese society. The young women were typically from poor families, and sold at a young age, the absence of contracts in these arrangements meant though that Mui Tsai might be resold into prostitution. The practice was also prevalent before World War II in Hong Kong, Singapore and parts of Southeast Asia"

etc etc...

Username Taken wrote: ↑Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:26 pm You might like to take a drive out on St 2004 around this time of night. How many bars, karaokes, Khmers and working girls do you see? Now, how many westerners do you see?

St 136 is touristville.

haha exactly, i go out drinking in the bars and KTVs out on 2004 street, or the KTVs, bars and beer gardens in SHV down KTV street and down by the port and other side streets, or even the not so well known "Khmer Pub Street" in Siem Reap, theres also all the KTVs down chicken farm road in Koh Kong, even quiet Takeo has a good number of KTVs and massage joints,

as i mentioned in an earlier post, the amount of KTVs, beer gardens and Massa/brothels in Cambodia far outnumber the amount of Tourist girly bars, the number of girls working in Hostess bars is far inferior to the number of girls working in the KTVs aimed at Asian clientele,
for the girls to say the civilized west is the route of the Cambodian sex slave trade/trafficking is quite ill informed i think

Jamie_Lambo wrote: ↑Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:14 am
so the Cambodian sex trafficking/slave trade stems from the west having strip and lap dancing clubs? really?
you do know Sex slavery and trafficking has been a thing in Asia long before the modern strip joints and lapdancing clubs in the West, or the Hostess bars in the East

etc etc...

Username Taken wrote: ↑Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:26 pm You might like to take a drive out on St 2004 around this time of night. How many bars, karaokes, Khmers and working girls do you see? Now, how many westerners do you see?

St 136 is touristville.

haha exactly, i go out drinking in the bars and KTVs out on 2004 street, or the KTVs, bars and beer gardens in SHV down KTV street and down by the port and other side streets, or even the not so well known "Khmer Pub Street" in Siem Reap, theres also all the KTVs down chicken farm road in Koh Kong, even quiet Takeo has a good number of KTVs and massage joints,

as i mentioned in an earlier post, the amount of KTVs, beer gardens and Massa/brothels in Cambodia far outnumber the amount of Tourist girly bars, the number of girls working in Hostess bars is far inferior to the number of girls working in the KTVs aimed at Asian clientele,
for the girls to say the civilized west is the route of the Cambodian sex slave trade/trafficking is quite ill informed i think

"so the Cambodian sex trafficking/slave trade stems from the west having strip and lap dancing clubs?" I did not say it was.You said we didn't have ladybars in the west, I just listed the alternatives people looking for sexual entertainment we do have
I am fuilly aware of the KTV, but I really do not see your point. I don't care what Cambodians get up to and I am not blaming the west for creating the sex trade, but its damn sure if westerners stopped paying girls for sex then they the demand would be less and the girls would have toget other jobs, so western tourists are a contributory factor in the size of the trade, as are Chinese and every other category of sex tourist who comes to the area.

Jamie_Lambo wrote: ↑Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:37 am i think you missed the initial point,
they were blaming the civilized west for cambodians sex slavery,

The Project Futures (NGO) site actually says:

While the majority of child sex offenders are locals (with the median age of rape victims being as young as 12 years old); the magnitude of Cambodia's cases of child sex tourism makes it a popular destination for offenders too.

I think the real "point" here is that these women obviously don't know very much about Cambodia, or sex-trafficking, so with the best intentions in the world, they are going to be of limited use. This will make them feel good, but are they useful ?

From the OP:

"We will be attending an intimate dinner with some survivors that have been saved from trafficking and sexual exploitation, we will also go a meet with women and children who are currently 'owned' as well as many other activities.

This sounds awfully like "missionary tourism". Dine with some survivors, meet some actual victims...

I'm so wary of the saviour syndrome. And Project Futures was founded by someone who read, and was inspired by, Somaly Mam's book (and we all know how that story ended.) It doesn't mean this project useless or bad, but isn't it time that the whole idea of westerners coming to "save" Cambodia was rethought ? Wasn't the Somaly Mam a sort of wake up call to how saving people can become a business ?

2018 Cambodia Immersion Tour
By Michell & Britt


There is a focus on child sex trafficking to the detriment of other forms of slavery, because it's a "sexy" subject, so obviously wrong and terrible, because it brings in the funds from western donors. I find the whole situation unhealthy.

Anchor Moy wrote: ↑Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:34 am

Jamie_Lambo wrote: ↑Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:37 am i think you missed the initial point,
they were blaming the civilized west for cambodians sex slavery,

The Project Futures (NGO) site actually says:

While the majority of child sex offenders are locals (with the median age of rape victims being as young as 12 years old); the magnitude of Cambodia's cases of child sex tourism makes it a popular destination for offenders too.

I think the real "point" here is that these women obviously don't know very much about Cambodia, or sex-trafficking, so with the best intentions in the world, they are going to be of limited use. This will make them feel good, but are they useful ?

this is the quote i keep referring to...

The two women described trafficking as the biggest criminal industry in the world.

"And it all stems from western, civilised countries," they added.

Anchor Moy wrote: ↑Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:34 am Tour
By Michell & Britt

.

I'm incredibly synical (realistic?) But the idea they met the organizer and had a bright idea to do the same for some bad, as well as good reasons, did cross my mind.

It will take more than Somaly Mam to stop that money game.