You should have bought bitcoin.

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Re: You should have bought bitcoin.

Post by Gardiguy » Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:49 am

And it's also incorrect, the binance guy in number 1 spot has already said he is at best number 3 as he personally knows 2 others with more than him but prefer to remain anonymous, most likely many more as well.
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Re: You should have bought bitcoin.

Post by Kammekor » Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:16 am

Abc123 wrote:
Sat Feb 10, 2018 6:04 pm
To me Bitcoin is like gold. I mean, like gold, its future is not in something you use to purchase everyday items. There are other Cryptos for that; eventhough, there are products and services that can be bought with it right now. It's for storage.

As far as more expensive than SWIFT goes: Bitcoin is slow, so there are other better low fee transfer Cryptos that move very fast through the system. The costs you compared are no doubt worked out by cost of producing a Bitcoin vs the cost charged by SWIFT? As Bitcoin transfer fees are incredibly low.

As far as computing power goes, doesn't Moore's Law cover it?
INTEL reckon there's at least another 4 or 5 years of transistor miniaturization to go. And what about emerging technologies?
Yes, bitcoin is notoriously slow. About 10-20 transactions per second can be handled, this means a transaction can easily take 2-3 working days, far from practical for a currency, and far from 'a technology people would like to adept'. That's why I simply don't understand the hype, and that's why I think eventually the value of the bitcoin will go to zero.

Moore's law will solve some of the problems with the speed in the future, but the problem is, if bitcoin really becomes mainstream and more people start using it instead of buying the coins as an investment the number of transactions will explode. This will never be covered by Moore's law.

Currently much of the costs of maintaining the block-chain for Bitcoin are covered because these machines also 'mine' bitcoins - giving them a reward for all the power-intensive calculations. But the number of bitcoins is limited. After a few years, all bitcoins have been given out. By that time (and maybe earlier, because the last coins are harder to mine), who is going to take the responsibility of keeping track of the block-chain? Of course bitcoins team of developers is working on this, by making the calculations of the block-chain less power intensive, but implementing iterations is hard because it's a decentralized system. And the question still remains: who is going to pay for keeping track of the block-chain once all coins have been mined. The answer, of course, is: the users. That means the use of bitcoin might become pretty expensive in the future. Again, far from practical. There are other cryptos that are much better at this, all iterations of bitcoin, and one or some of those might be the winner. All the others, eventually, will die and become worthless.

If someone buys bitcoin as an investment, like gold or diamonds, I can kind of understand it because the reason people buy it is they feel the next in line will pay more for the same. But I just can't understand there's people around believing the bitcoin will ever become a currency. It's initial design simply was not good enough to work as a worldwide currency. To be that, it should be able to perform maybe 100.000-1.000.000 transactions per second, instead of 10-20. No iteration or Moore's law is going to solve that problem. Plus, Moore's law has an end. The newest generation of chips will use the 14 Nm process, but going smaller (10 Nm) is increasingly difficult and one step forward now takes more than two years. And smaller than 0 Nm is not possible...

My 2 cents.
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Re: You should have bought bitcoin.

Post by Duncan » Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:55 am

Kammekor wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:16 am
Abc123 wrote:
Sat Feb 10, 2018 6:04 pm
To me Bitcoin is like gold. I mean, like gold, its future is not in something you use to purchase everyday items. There are other Cryptos for that; eventhough, there are products and services that can be bought with it right now. It's for storage.

As far as more expensive than SWIFT goes: Bitcoin is slow, so there are other better low fee transfer Cryptos that move very fast through the system. The costs you compared are no doubt worked out by cost of producing a Bitcoin vs the cost charged by SWIFT? As Bitcoin transfer fees are incredibly low.

As far as computing power goes, doesn't Moore's Law cover it?
INTEL reckon there's at least another 4 or 5 years of transistor miniaturization to go. And what about emerging technologies?
Yes, bitcoin is notoriously slow. About 10-20 transactions per second can be handled, this means a transaction can easily take 2-3 working days, far from practical for a currency, and far from 'a technology people would like to adept'. That's why I simply don't understand the hype, and that's why I think eventually the value of the bitcoin will go to zero.

Moore's law will solve some of the problems with the speed in the future, but the problem is, if bitcoin really becomes mainstream and more people start using it instead of buying the coins as an investment the number of transactions will explode. This will never be covered by Moore's law.

Currently much of the costs of maintaining the block-chain for Bitcoin are covered because these machines also 'mine' bitcoins - giving them a reward for all the power-intensive calculations. But the number of bitcoins is limited. After a few years, all bitcoins have been given out. By that time (and maybe earlier, because the last coins are harder to mine), who is going to take the responsibility of keeping track of the block-chain? Of course bitcoins team of developers is working on this, by making the calculations of the block-chain less power intensive, but implementing iterations is hard because it's a decentralized system. And the question still remains: who is going to pay for keeping track of the block-chain once all coins have been mined. The answer, of course, is: the users. That means the use of bitcoin might become pretty expensive in the future. Again, far from practical. There are other cryptos that are much better at this, all iterations of bitcoin, and one or some of those might be the winner. All the others, eventually, will die and become worthless.

If someone buys bitcoin as an investment, like gold or diamonds, I can kind of understand it because the reason people buy it is they feel the next in line will pay more for the same. But I just can't understand there's people around believing the bitcoin will ever become a currency. It's initial design simply was not good enough to work as a worldwide currency. To be that, it should be able to perform maybe 100.000-1.000.000 transactions per second, instead of 10-20. No iteration or Moore's law is going to solve that problem. Plus, Moore's law has an end. The newest generation of chips will use the 14 Nm process, but going smaller (10 Nm) is increasingly difficult and one step forward now takes more than two years. And smaller than 0 Nm is not possible...

My 2 cents.

Why are you using cents ? If you believe in bitcoin so much why not 2 bitcoins .
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Re: You should have bought bitcoin.

Post by bangkokhooker » Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:51 pm

Duncant wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:55 am
Kammekor wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:16 am


My 2 cents.

Why are you using cents ? If you believe in bitcoin so much why not 2 bitcoins .
Fail.

250 Satoshi is 2 cents.
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Re: You should have bought bitcoin.

Post by Duncan » Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:26 pm

bangkokhooker wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:51 pm
Duncant wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:55 am
Kammekor wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:16 am


My 2 cents.

Why are you using cents ? If you believe in bitcoin so much why not 2 bitcoins .
Fail.

250 Satoshi is 2 cents.
Fail.
Perhaps you cannot read, I asked why he was not using bitcoin.
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Re: You should have bought bitcoin.

Post by bangkokhooker » Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:26 pm

:lol:
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Re: You should have bought bitcoin.

Post by doktor_d » Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:31 pm

Kammekor wrote:Yes, bitcoin is notoriously slow. About 10-20 transactions per second can be handled, this means a transaction can easily take 2-3 working days, far from practical for a currency, and far from 'a technology people would like to adept'. That's why I simply don't understand the hype, and that's why I think eventually the value of the bitcoin will go to zero.
With Segwit transactions are both much much quicker and much much cheaper than you suggest..

Also.. like I said earlier.. you could just look up "Lightning Network". Instead you insist on repeating outdated and inaccurate information.. Seems to me like you're not really interested in reality. Only the "truth" as you see it.

I'll at least put up a few quotes for others who might want some other source of information.
Lightning Network - Transactions for the Future..

..Security is enforced by blockchain smart-contracts without creating a on-blockchain transaction for individual payments. Payment speed measured in milliseconds to seconds...

..Capable of millions to billions of transactions per second across the network. Capacity blows away legacy payment rails by many orders of magnitude. Attaching payment per action/click is now possible without custodians..

..By transacting and settling off-blockchain, the Lightning Network allows for exceptionally low fees, which allows for emerging use cases such as instant micropayments..
L I G H T N I N G N E T W O R K. Look it up.
Kammekor wrote:Moore's law will solve some of the problems with the speed in the future, but the problem is, if bitcoin really becomes mainstream and more people start using it instead of buying the coins as an investment the number of transactions will explode. This will never be covered by Moore's law.
Again.. Lightning Network.
Kammekor wrote:Currently much of the costs of maintaining the block-chain for Bitcoin are covered because these machines also 'mine' bitcoins - giving them a reward for all the power-intensive calculations. But the number of bitcoins is limited. After a few years, all bitcoins have been given out.
The last coin will be mined sometime around 2140. Would you consider that "a few years"?
Kammekor wrote:It's initial design simply was not good enough to work as a worldwide currency. To be that, it should be able to perform maybe 100.000-1.000.000 transactions per second, instead of 10-20. No iteration or Moore's law is going to solve that problem.


Again.. Lightning Network. You should really look it up.

"SegWit enables the Lightning Network, a second layer to run on top of the base blockchain layer, hypothetically resolving the scaling problem by enabling virtually unlimited numbers of instant, low-fee transactions to occur "off chain".
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Re: You should have bought bitcoin.

Post by Kammekor » Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:07 pm

doktor_d wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:31 pm
Kammekor wrote:Yes, bitcoin is notoriously slow. About 10-20 transactions per second can be handled, this means a transaction can easily take 2-3 working days, far from practical for a currency, and far from 'a technology people would like to adept'. That's why I simply don't understand the hype, and that's why I think eventually the value of the bitcoin will go to zero.
With Segwit transactions are both much much quicker and much much cheaper than you suggest..

Also.. like I said earlier.. you could just look up "Lightning Network". Instead you insist on repeating outdated and inaccurate information.. Seems to me like you're not really interested in reality. Only the "truth" as you see it.

I'll at least put up a few quotes for others who might want some other source of information.
Lightning Network - Transactions for the Future..

..Security is enforced by blockchain smart-contracts without creating a on-blockchain transaction for individual payments. Payment speed measured in milliseconds to seconds...

..Capable of millions to billions of transactions per second across the network. Capacity blows away legacy payment rails by many orders of magnitude. Attaching payment per action/click is now possible without custodians..

..By transacting and settling off-blockchain, the Lightning Network allows for exceptionally low fees, which allows for emerging use cases such as instant micropayments..
L I G H T N I N G N E T W O R K. Look it up.
Kammekor wrote:Moore's law will solve some of the problems with the speed in the future, but the problem is, if bitcoin really becomes mainstream and more people start using it instead of buying the coins as an investment the number of transactions will explode. This will never be covered by Moore's law.
Again.. Lightning Network.
Kammekor wrote:Currently much of the costs of maintaining the block-chain for Bitcoin are covered because these machines also 'mine' bitcoins - giving them a reward for all the power-intensive calculations. But the number of bitcoins is limited. After a few years, all bitcoins have been given out.
The last coin will be mined sometime around 2140. Would you consider that "a few years"?
Kammekor wrote:It's initial design simply was not good enough to work as a worldwide currency. To be that, it should be able to perform maybe 100.000-1.000.000 transactions per second, instead of 10-20. No iteration or Moore's law is going to solve that problem.


Again.. Lightning Network. You should really look it up.

"SegWit enables the Lightning Network, a second layer to run on top of the base blockchain layer, hypothetically resolving the scaling problem by enabling virtually unlimited numbers of instant, low-fee transactions to occur "off chain".
OK, you're a believer. SegWit is perfect, the solution for all, right? Another layer of software on top of the original software.

But it has been available since late july 2017, and not much has changed, has it? Now, more than 6 months later, it's just a joke to state "resolving the scaling problem by enabling virtually unlimited numbers of instant, low-fee transactions". Maybe in the future, but not now, 6 month after the initial introduction of the SegWit soft fork. You seem to forget nobody's running Bitcoin, it's a decentralized system meaning making changes to it's initial design is extremely difficult and has already led to all kinds of breakups.

And about the last coin to be mined in 2140, I know that. But are you familiar with the concept 'inflation' built in the Bitcoin algorithm? Meaning the further we go down the road, the more blocks have to be processed in order to mine one single coin?
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Re: You should have bought bitcoin.

Post by doktor_d » Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:17 pm

You seem to be getting SEGWIT and LIGHTNING NETWORK mixed up. They are two different things. The lightning network is currently being tested. It's not on the main net yet.

If you can't even distinguish between the two, I don't see the point in discussing this any further.

You seem to have some basic understanding about how bitcoin works, but you get so many things wrong and you seem to have no interest in fact checking anything you say or in adding to your outdated and flawed knowledge by reading publicly available info easily accessible by google.

Why should I bother wasting my time looking it up for you.. It's valuable time I will never get back.
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Re: You should have bought bitcoin.

Post by Barang chgout » Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:39 pm

Lol! Valuable time on a site like this...ffs.

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