Rise and fall of an Empire

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vladimir
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Re: Rise and fall of an Empire

Post by vladimir »

Duncan wrote: Fri Jul 21, 2017 11:25 am A question directed mainly to those who study history, especially on the rise and fall of empires like the Roman Empire, Spanish, British , and the American.

Do you believe that the Chinese Empire will one day collapse , and if so what will be the results of that.
Little bit premature, Duncan, but all empires are doomed to collapse, no redneck ever thought Muriika would collapse, but all the signs are there.
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Re: Rise and fall of an Empire

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John Bingham wrote: Fri Jul 21, 2017 3:06 pm
Pizzalover wrote: Fri Jul 21, 2017 1:49 pm Now the colonial empire (today's Chinese borders) is expanding in a 19th century stile imperialist fashion with securing extra-territorial areas (Nicaragua, seemingly Dshibuti, and probably others as well), aside from that direct expansion in the South China Sea, economic penetration in Pakistan, SEA, strategic spots around the globe.
I''m not sure what is being discussed here. China's borders have barely changed since the 1949 Communist victory, other than re-asserting control over their province of Tibet and regaining control of Macau and Hong Kong. Djibouti has French, Saudi and US bases as well as the Chinese one. The Chinese are building a canal in Nicaragua, hardly an invasion. The Spratlys and Paracels are pretty much the only territorial expansion going on.
Good point, but geographical empires are giving way to economic ones. And there's not much point in stirring by physically taking over a country when one controls it economically anyway. In fact, one loses, because the administration is the killer cost.

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Re: Rise and fall of an Empire

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John Bingham wrote: Fri Jul 21, 2017 3:06 pm
Pizzalover wrote: Fri Jul 21, 2017 1:49 pm Now the colonial empire (today's Chinese borders) is expanding in a 19th century stile imperialist fashion with securing extra-territorial areas (Nicaragua, seemingly Dshibuti, and probably others as well), aside from that direct expansion in the South China Sea, economic penetration in Pakistan, SEA, strategic spots around the globe.
I''m not sure what is being discussed here. China's borders have barely changed since the 1949 Communist victory, other than re-asserting control over their province of Tibet and regaining control of Macau and Hong Kong. Djibouti has French, Saudi and US bases as well as the Chinese one. The Chinese are building a canal in Nicaragua, hardly an invasion. The Spratlys and Paracels are pretty much the only territorial expansion going on.
China has border conflicts with India (Bhutan's Doklam plateau), Russian far east border at the Amur river.
Russia's Far East is a vast sparsely populated region. Across the Amur River is heavily populated northeast China. By some estimates, there are about 5 million illegal Chinese immigrants living in Russia's Far East, with the number increasing by a million or so each year. The 1969 border war is well remembered by both sides, so the new DF-41 missile deployment is stoking strong nationalistic feelings on both sides.
And then there's the South China Sea. Remember the island building.. China said it wasn't going to be a military base? And now they have a missile base there. They are claiming areas just off the coast of Indonesia.


So tell me again how China isnt expanding their borders.
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Re: Rise and fall of an Empire

Post by Cruisemonkey »

IraHayes wrote: Sun Jul 23, 2017 6:03 pm And then there's the South China Sea. Remember the island building.. China said it wasn't going to be a military base? And now they have a missile base there. They are claiming areas just off the coast of Indonesia.

True... but everybody is claiming everything (before I'm 'crucified', that's hyperbole). However, at least most of the rocks in the South China Sea are uninhabited. What do you know about the history of Diego Garcia?

And, didn't the Chin empire rise about 5000 years ago... followed by several more? Everything is cyclical.
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vladimir
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Re: Rise and fall of an Empire

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Cruisemonkey wrote: Sun Jul 23, 2017 7:25 pm Everything is cyclical. :beer3:
Chris Froome seems to think so.
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Re: Rise and fall of an Empire

Post by AlonzoPartriz »

IraHayes wrote: Sun Jul 23, 2017 6:03 pm
John Bingham wrote: Fri Jul 21, 2017 3:06 pm
Pizzalover wrote: Fri Jul 21, 2017 1:49 pm Now the colonial empire (today's Chinese borders) is expanding in a 19th century stile imperialist fashion with securing extra-territorial areas (Nicaragua, seemingly Dshibuti, and probably others as well), aside from that direct expansion in the South China Sea, economic penetration in Pakistan, SEA, strategic spots around the globe.
I''m not sure what is being discussed here. China's borders have barely changed since the 1949 Communist victory, other than re-asserting control over their province of Tibet and regaining control of Macau and Hong Kong. Djibouti has French, Saudi and US bases as well as the Chinese one. The Chinese are building a canal in Nicaragua, hardly an invasion. The Spratlys and Paracels are pretty much the only territorial expansion going on.

China has border conflicts with India (Bhutan's Doklam plateau), Russian far east border at the Amur river.
Russia's Far East is a vast sparsely populated region. Across the Amur River is heavily populated northeast China. By some estimates, there are about 5 million illegal Chinese immigrants living in Russia's Far East, with the number increasing by a million or so each year. The 1969 border war is well remembered by both sides, so the new DF-41 missile deployment is stoking strong nationalistic feelings on both sides.
And then there's the South China Sea. Remember the island building.. China said it wasn't going to be a military base? And now they have a missile base there. They are claiming areas just off the coast of Indonesia.


So tell me again how China isnt expanding their borders.
Don't forget Laos and Cambodia. The Chinese are big breeders, they should really all be made to wear bunny ears.

China has a brsnd new shiny capitalist system. What do we all know about capitalism?
What will happen if the Yuan takes a massive nose dive?
See crook!!!
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John Bingham
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Re: Rise and fall of an Empire

Post by John Bingham »

IraHayes wrote: Sun Jul 23, 2017 6:03 pm
John Bingham wrote: Fri Jul 21, 2017 3:06 pm
Pizzalover wrote: Fri Jul 21, 2017 1:49 pm Now the colonial empire (today's Chinese borders) is expanding in a 19th century stile imperialist fashion with securing extra-territorial areas (Nicaragua, seemingly Dshibuti, and probably others as well), aside from that direct expansion in the South China Sea, economic penetration in Pakistan, SEA, strategic spots around the globe.
I''m not sure what is being discussed here. China's borders have barely changed since the 1949 Communist victory, other than re-asserting control over their province of Tibet and regaining control of Macau and Hong Kong. Djibouti has French, Saudi and US bases as well as the Chinese one. The Chinese are building a canal in Nicaragua, hardly an invasion. The Spratlys and Paracels are pretty much the only territorial expansion going on.
China has border conflicts with India (Bhutan's Doklam plateau), Russian far east border at the Amur river.
Russia's Far East is a vast sparsely populated region. Across the Amur River is heavily populated northeast China. By some estimates, there are about 5 million illegal Chinese immigrants living in Russia's Far East, with the number increasing by a million or so each year. The 1969 border war is well remembered by both sides, so the new DF-41 missile deployment is stoking strong nationalistic feelings on both sides.
And then there's the South China Sea. Remember the island building.. China said it wasn't going to be a military base? And now they have a missile base there. They are claiming areas just off the coast of Indonesia.


So tell me again how China isnt expanding their borders.
Those border conflicts were more than 4-5 decades ago. I already mentioned the bases on the South China Sea, and again these disputes go back more than 40 years.
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John Bingham
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Re: Rise and fall of an Empire

Post by John Bingham »

AlonzoPartriz wrote: Sun Jul 23, 2017 11:44 pm
Don't forget Laos and Cambodia.
What about Laos and Cambodia? There are no border conflicts between China and either country.
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Re: Rise and fall of an Empire

Post by IraHayes »

John Bingham wrote: Sun Jul 23, 2017 11:50 pm
IraHayes wrote: Sun Jul 23, 2017 6:03 pm
John Bingham wrote: Fri Jul 21, 2017 3:06 pm
Pizzalover wrote: Fri Jul 21, 2017 1:49 pm Now the colonial empire (today's Chinese borders) is expanding in a 19th century stile imperialist fashion with securing extra-territorial areas (Nicaragua, seemingly Dshibuti, and probably others as well), aside from that direct expansion in the South China Sea, economic penetration in Pakistan, SEA, strategic spots around the globe.
I''m not sure what is being discussed here. China's borders have barely changed since the 1949 Communist victory, other than re-asserting control over their province of Tibet and regaining control of Macau and Hong Kong. Djibouti has French, Saudi and US bases as well as the Chinese one. The Chinese are building a canal in Nicaragua, hardly an invasion. The Spratlys and Paracels are pretty much the only territorial expansion going on.
China has border conflicts with India (Bhutan's Doklam plateau), Russian far east border at the Amur river.
Russia's Far East is a vast sparsely populated region. Across the Amur River is heavily populated northeast China. By some estimates, there are about 5 million illegal Chinese immigrants living in Russia's Far East, with the number increasing by a million or so each year. The 1969 border war is well remembered by both sides, so the new DF-41 missile deployment is stoking strong nationalistic feelings on both sides.
And then there's the South China Sea. Remember the island building.. China said it wasn't going to be a military base? And now they have a missile base there. They are claiming areas just off the coast of Indonesia.


So tell me again how China isnt expanding their borders.
Those border conflicts were more than 4-5 decades ago. I already mentioned the bases on the South China Sea, and again these disputes go back more than 40 years.
4 or 5 decades?? It was only a couple of months ago that China tried to annex the Doklam Plateau.
China is reduced to threatening both India and Bhutan with military violence. China is also trying to encourage some kind of "independence movement" in Bhutan, to sever all ties with India, and to put their faith in China.

China is also claiming that India has no right defend Bhutan. In fact, India was asked by Bhutan to send in troops to stop the Chinese. China likes to use its vast military complex to intimidate smaller neighbors, including Philippines, Vietnam, and some Central Asian countries. They would have succeeded in invading and annexing this region of Bhutan in the same way, if India had not come to Bhutan's aid.
From http://www.generationaldynamics.com/pg/ ... tm#e170708
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Re: Rise and fall of an Empire

Post by John Bingham »

IraHayes wrote: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:03 am

4 or 5 decades?? It was only a couple of months ago that China tried to annex the Doklam Plateau.
Fair enough, but it's a disputed border area claimed by both countries. The major conflicts between the USSR/ India and China were more than 4/5 decades ago. It's not like they have a huge expeditionary force invading and occupying countries far from their borders, like certain other superpowers do.
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