OrangeDragon wrote:more putting words in my mouth...
what i can't figure out is if you do that on purpose, or if that's how you really read/remember things. with one you're an ass, with the other you're a simp.

OrangeDragon wrote:But is it exploitation is my question. How is giving them the salary they always get, as well as the addition of 3 months living expenses covered, as well as a bonus of some undefined amount exploitation?

I'm willing to bet they were ecstatic for it.

OrangeDragon wrote:
And ANYONE from ANYWHERE being given a free 3 months of living expenses on top of their regular salary is being done a favor... it's not patriotism, it's common sense. Hell, when my company gives me a business trip with expenses covered i get giddy about it. A bonus as well!? F-ya!

OrangeDragon wrote:
You also don't seem to understand the concept of salary vs hourly wages, the way you keep harping on that number. It's quite possible the workers didn't work 122 hours, but billed that many. Happens all the time, often out of just slapping some number into your nuisance time system, and because it's salary workers (so doesn't cost any more) the companies don't focus heavily on enforcing it. Salary workers are also known as "exempt" status. A good example of this, with expense compensation, would be the US military. An E-1 rank soldier in basic training earns $1417/month, but may "work" up to 20 hours on most days and 7 days a week. That comes down to close to what these Indians are being paid... are these US citizens being exploited? How could it possibly be legal to be paying them less than "minimum wage"!? Answer: Because it's calculated with non-wage benefits included.

Did you miss the courts ruling and the companies admission that it made an error?

OrangeDragon wrote:Do you know what the word "many" means? You make loads of sweeping sweeping statements about the US when in reality state by state and even city by city differ culturally frequently. But some things are "generally" common among them... just as they are among *many* European cultures. And it's still not me SAYING they're rude, as you claimed... it's me saying they're seen as rude. If you can't comprehend that difference, then you really are quite a simp.

And that is the EXACT quote... I copied and pasted. What do you need, a screenshot?

In that case (based on my message as I don't remember what post it was for) you had clearly taken a thought out message and attempted to derail the thread. If i see that I frequently hand out some negative for it. Even gave some to the General the other day over something similar.

Buy you know... nice try holing on to that victim card and all.

Could you post my alleged sweeping statements about the US?

Why do you claim Americans have better manners? Has there been a study or something?
Are you saying all these 23 different language speaking nations have the same manners, none of which are not as good as Americans?
As of 2010 the European Union has 23 official and working languages: Bulgarian, Czech, Danish, Dutch, English, Estonian, Finnish, French, German, Greek, Hungarian, Irish, Italian, Latvian, Lithuanian, Maltese, Polish, Portuguese, Romanian, Slovak, Slovene, Spanish and Swedish.


Playing the victim - I am the victim. I am potentially rude, ignorant, with an alleged anti OD and anti American agenda which you won't back up, who gets neg karma for disagreeing with you.
If you post a link to the tipping thread, I will find the quote for you where you said many Euros are rude and ignorant.

OrangeDragon wrote:

UKJ wrote:Cultural brainwashing is alive and well! I don't get this " exceptional service" excuse. What is exceptional about a bartender serving up a drink or a card dealer dealing the cards? Tipping has actually led to bad service to no service. I hear that if you tip the wrong amount for a drink in Vegas ( $2 a drink in the round), you get ignored for the rest of the night. Winners of poker tournaments get extorted for part of their winnings to tip just about half the casino staff. We are talking thousands of dollars, demanded immediately. It's outrageous. A friend told me that there's a line of taxis waiting outside the casino, buy you have to tip a guy to raise his arm to summon one over. We have a name for that in Europe. Scam. And as has been said here, American service staff don't like Europeans because of their different culture. So I guess you better sit and wait until the locals are served, before they serve the " outsiders"!

You've been getting fed a whole world of bullshit. And American service staff are biased against europeans because many of the ones who visit America tend to be rude or obnoxious, and then leave no tip no matter how the server busted their ass for them.

What's exceptional about a server serving up drinks is when they manage to keep a bar full of people happy by serving them quickly and with pretty great reflex to who has been waiting the longest. Beyond that, a bartender who remembers what i'm having in a loud and busy bar so i don't have to try and yell will always get a big tip for doing so. A dealer dealing cards isn't a tip thing... you "can" on a winning hand, as a sign of good luck, but it's in way obligatory. I've NEVER heard or seen someone tipping $2 a drink, even in vegas, as the standard... that's absurd. Generally bar tips are $1 a cocktail, .50 a beer. Like I said, some situations are exceptional and make for a larger one. Meanwhile, that beer costs $2.50... how much is one where you're from?

Another reason to tip high in a busy bar... if you order something extremely complicated. Like a round of b52 shots or something. They're super busy and taking the time to make those for you is really slowing down their service to the other customers, a tip thanking them for not just putting you off while they handled the faster drinks is always a good idea... or they will. You want them to frustrate the other 100 people trying to get a drink so you can have your shot, thank them for it, with cash that it probably cost them in everyone elses tips.

Oh, and your friend can raise their own hand to hail a cab just fine... no valet needed.

OrangeDragon wrote:

UKJ wrote:

OrangeDragon wrote:To give you an idea of how the poor understanding of tipping, or just bullheadedness about it, of people from non tipping countries as a whole has impacted the relationship of servers and foreigners in America... when foreigners enter a restaurant the hostess (to person who seats them) almost universally will apologise to the waiter or waitress who's section they seated them in. ESPECIALLY if it's the sort of place that does "tip out" where a percentage of the tips (based on sales amounts) are distributed to the kitchen staff as well... because in that case, under a 15% tip actually costs the server money. As it should if they're cocking up constantly... since why should someone who fucks off and is sloppy/lazy get paid the same as someone who busts their ass making a good experience for a customer?
.

It's not a foreigners fault that American restaurants are scam joints. The menu should give the actual cost of dining there, and not a bogus price, that you are meant to stick 15% + on, or win prize money that is actually up to 8% less than stated, as a heavy demands immediate payment. Thai restaurants can give you an English menu. Why can't tourist restaurants in America, give tourists a real price? Jeez. And because the rest of the world does it different, we are rude, ignorant and bullheaded.

So what's an " ass busting good experience " ? I don't think most Euros want " Hello, my name is Brad/ Cindy, and I'm going to be your server tonight. The specials are , blah blah blah" . We want a menu that we can read, without talking to a falsely enthusiastic person who has to demean themselves by kissing our ass because their boss doesn't pay them enough. We like workers to have their dignity intact.

Generally it's not false... believe it or not americans tend to be polite people. We hold doors for strangers, smile at strangers we're interacting with, introduce ourselves, and so on. Overly so by many european standards. Likely why many europeans are seen as rude by american standards. And, in the end, you're in america... we DO want someone being friendly and polite with us, paying attention that we're almost out of our beverage and checking if we'd like some more, asking us part way through if everything is alright or if they can get us something. Most businesses in america, with a very few exceptions, are targeted for americans... not international tourists. and it's a service we're willing to pay for, and we do so with tips. don't like that? go to mcdonalds/etc where such things aren't expected (though they'll still be polite).

And that IS the actual price of the food... not of the service. You can be a dick and not tip... it's not illegal. I've even done it when completely broke and explained to the server that I was strapped and only had enough for my meal (in advance). They were fine with it, knowing how such things are themselves, and there were no issues. Its called being polite.

So euros don't like to tip... and get unfriendly service as a result... perfect. they didn't want to pay for friendly service, only for their food... so they got what they paid for.

I am sorry that none of the European nations are up to American standards! And I'm sure the Indians are sorry for wanting minimum wage.

How did you miss out on American standards of politeness? You are by far, the rudest member on here. Sailorman got abuse today, and I always get abuse from you. Are you not American?

Here's what a member said about you in the tipping thread

Rain Dog wrote:

OrangeDragon wrote:I helped to start this forum because I liked having discussions with people... why put the effort into it if i'm then not to participate in the discussions that interest me? And I don't actually participate in every discussion... in fact quite a few I don't even really read. Only those that interest me or are site related.

Just in this section of the 21 1st page topics not started by me, I count about 10 that i've actively participated in, of those about 5-6 that i've participated in a back-and-forth as above. (And with more than a few of those back and forths being dengeham trying to tell me that because i get drunk once or twice every couple of weeks i'm an alcohol addict.)

I agree with you. You can be very much overly-tenacious even when proven wrong

Which is similar to what Stroppy and I said to you earlier this week.

Don't hold back!

OrangeDragon wrote:

Tim Linkinwater wrote:^ True.

Still way behind on dentistry though.

man... the irony in you posting the rain dog quote is brilliant. you're truly clueless or intentionally antagonistic, even when you know you're wrong. shouldn't you be watching a Jersey Shore "documentary" or something?

the comedic bit about the linkinwater quote is that he's a UK lad like yourself.

Also, since you seem to harp on it so much, can you link to any evidence of a court ruling and not a Dept. of Labor settlement to avoid a worse PR incident than the one they were already facing and to save some money on lawyers?

Dailykos.com says:

Eastwood said the company also failed to keep documentation of the hours worked by the Indian employees. Though the workers were only owed $20,000 in back pay and overtime, regulators doubled that amount to $40,000 in the settlement to compensate for damages.

And given that there is no documentation of the hours worked by the employees... I wonder what real evidence there is to back up the 122 hours a week claim?

OrangeDragon wrote:man... the irony in you posting the rain dog quote is brilliant. you're truly clueless or intentionally antagonistic, even when you know you're wrong. shouldn't you be watching a Jersey Shore "documentary" or something?

the comedic bit about the linkinwater quote is that he's a UK lad like yourself.

Also, since you seem to harp on it so much, can you link to any evidence of a court ruling and not a Dept. of Labor settlement to avoid a worse PR incident than the one they were already facing and to save some money on lawyers?

Dailykos.com says:

Eastwood said the company also failed to keep documentation of the hours worked by the Indian employees. Though the workers were only owed $20,000 in back pay and overtime, regulators doubled that amount to $40,000 in the settlement to compensate for damages.

And given that there is no documentation of the hours worked by the employees... I wonder what real evidence there is to back up the 122 hours a week claim?

FFS OD, admit it was wrong to pay workers $1.21 for up to 122 hours a week. You are being an insufferable arse. You are the only person in the world who doesn't see it. Post a link if there is another person that shares your views. Even the company admits it was wrong.

Here's what the Dept of Labor said
Michael Eastwood, a Department of Labor assistant district director, said the abuses at Electronics for Imaging were among the most outrageous he had ever seen — even worse than problems he had seen at garment factories in southern California.

"This is worse than anything that I ever saw in any of those Los Angeles sweatshops," Eastwood said Thursday.


They broke the law
Electronics for Imaging says it "unintentionally overlooked" U.S. laws requiring foreign workers to be paid at least minimum wage, with overtime for more than 40 weekly hours on the job.
http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireSt ... r-26405622

And answer
Are you saying all these 23 different language speaking nations have the same manners, none of which are as good as Americans?
As of 2010 the European Union has 23 official and working languages: Bulgarian, Czech, Danish, Dutch, English, Estonian, Finnish, French, German, Greek, Hungarian, Irish, Italian, Latvian, Lithuanian, Maltese, Polish, Portuguese, Romanian, Slovak, Slovene, Spanish and Swedish.
I don't understand how you can possibly say that such vastly different nations are similar, and are all inferior to Americans. I think you are quite mad.

You still can't get the concept that increasing someone's quality of life in general isn't exploiting them. especially if it's something they agreed to. Meanwhile i'm sure you don't pay UK taxi driver rates to the tuktuks in Cambodia when you come here. And I didn't ask you to find something that said they broke the law... I asked you to back up your question of "Did you miss the courts ruling". because clearly I did... and I don't think one exists. One more in a long list of examples of you reading things and coming up with something completely different than is written.

You also can't get the concept of "many europeans" not addressing all of europe. I also never even insinuated inferiority... only a difference in the standard behaviours and a resulting perception from the perspective or some other cultures. You're, as above, reading what you want to read regardless of what is written.

As for the differences/similarities... as Europe moves more and more towards a federation (despite Scotland's attempt at destroying their economy with independence) that line gets fuzzier and fuzzier... even with language barriers. There is more culturally in common among many of the European countries than most of the members of them care to admit. I'd predict the EU as a full federation by the end of 2020.

Regarding manners... well we'll let the wiki article answer that:

Etiquette in Europe is not uniform. Even within the regions of Europe, etiquette may not be uniform: within a single country there may be differences in customs, especially where there are different linguistic groups, as in Switzerland where there are French, German and Italian speakers.

Despite this heterogeneity, many points of etiquette have spread through Europe and many features are shared. The ancient Roman Empire is an historical source, and the cosmopolitan royalty and also nobility were effective in spreading etiquette throughout Europe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etiquette_in_Europe

Wkipedia is garbage Its good for a quick glance but should be taken lightly most of the time. If you go scroll to the bottom of every wiki page you will see the refrences of pages that lead to a dead link or books that dont exists. I love my moms old history books cause it contains such little bias as todays books and media which is well...leaning towards the side of Islamo faciest socialist new world order lgbt.

I came to Cambodia with a very openmind on meeting new people and trying new things. I never met so many people from so many countries. I dont want to paint the brush on Europeans. Cause I always remind myself what kind of people move to Cambodia. But majority I have met are rude nasty pieces of shit. The stereotypical french person is spot on. Germans and Polish people seem to be the coolest and most down to earth. Brits its hit or miss. Eastern Europeans are very nice also. Norwegians are fucking dicks..grown to distaste them and the drunk aussie tourist are s.o.b's Japs are great but my best friend hates them splashing cash around. Koreans...hit or miss.

OrangeDragon wrote:Meanwhile i'm sure you don't pay UK taxi driver rates to the tuktuks in Cambodia when you come here.

No, tuk-tuks in Sihanoukville often charge more than taxis in the UK.

My friend works for Aqua Cabs in Portsmouth, the 4th largest taxi firm in the UK.

I thought I would compare two similar distance journeys that someone arriving at the bus station might make.


First:-
Sihanoukville Bus Station to Serendipity Pier

3.3 miles or 5.4 kms - tuk-tuk costs around $10 (6.25 GBP) for 3 passengers plus luggage


Then:-
Portsmouth Bus Station (The Hard Interchange) to Hilsea Crescent

3.3 miles or 5.4 kms - taxi costs around $9 (between 5 and 6 GBP) for 3 passengers plus luggage

AquaCars Website wrote: Day Fare: £5 - £6
Night Fare: £7 - £8
Time: 10.5 minutes
Distance: 3.3 miles

Feel free to check it yourself :- http://www.aquacars.co.uk/FareCalculator.cshtml

And I am not even going to go near how much of this money actually ends up in the driver's pocket after UK fuel costs/insurance/car costs/taxes

Been involved in labour transfer pricing many times between different country entities of the same company and there is usually a rate agreement that satisfies the legal requirements of the entity ( minimum wage etc ), that is receiving the labour as much for tax purposes than anything else. As OD points out, in my experience the worker doesn't get a sudden change of wages but will get an extra overseas allowance to reflect the special nature/geography of the work, per diems etc etc.

However that being said, if I read the details in the thread correctly there is a quote from the company representative agreeing with the ruling that it broke the law in not paying these foreign workers the minimum wage, so I've got to assume whatever the arrangement re housing, expenses, per diem etc there must be a legal requirement in this case minimum wage wise, i.e. that it's not some sort of inter-company transaction or US law is diiferent. It sounds pretty clear cut in this case.

Paying foreign labour less than minimum wage is exploitation pure and simple, I thought you were criticising Thailand recently of exploiting migrant Cambodian labour OD for the same thing. The only people that benefit is most definately not the "ecstatic" exploited workforce but the large companies seeking to maximise the bottom line by adopting third world work practices. In my opinion of course.

I'm also of the opinion that in the UK while they may be paying minimum wage, numerous large FTSE outsourcing business companies who just happen to be large donators to the Tory party have benefitted hugely by said governments lax immigration policies in reshaping their staffing profile and being awarded large government contracts, which they have failed to deliver on.