Self defence or not... you be the judge

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siliconlife
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Re: Self defence or not... you be the judge

Post by siliconlife »

Mish is also forgetting that 2 out of 3 gun deaths in the US are suicides, not homicides.

https://everytownresearch.org/firearm-suicide/
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Re: Self defence or not... you be the judge

Post by SternAAlbifrons »

We are not really Yank bashing, Brody, although i can understand you seeing it that way
More like confused, deep down.

Even America's firmest friends and allies, Europe and the English speaking world, shake our heads in bewilderment and sorrow at your terrible self-inflicted toll.
We really don't understand... especially about the school-kids. You see this situation simply does not happen in other first world countries.

And if there is just a touch of glee, perhaps it is because USA is so proud and boastful with its claim to be "exceptional", and to be especially ordained by God.
Not to mention your undemocratic muscle-plays with weaker nations.

Don't winge, it's a fair cop in most of the world's eyes.
When the crunch comes, enough of us usually sign up and march off to war alongside of you.
(Even if we think you are slightly nuts in some regards.)

And to make it clear - Many of us who are sometimes quite critical, do wish USA to be a stronger power in the world today.
Especially when it comes to challenging China.
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Re: Self defence or not... you be the judge

Post by Brody »

SternAAlbifrons wrote: Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:23 am We are not really Yank bashing, Brody,
I was specifically talking about the people that I quoted.......not you or anyone else, SterAAlbifrons.

The comments were idiotic and added nothing to the topic of this thread.

Keep on topic and don't turn it into a navel-gazing exercise in 'all things wrong with America' thread. There are plenty of those on CEO already.

So back to the thread, "Self defense or not...you be the judge"...............discuss:
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Re: Self defence or not... you be the judge

Post by SternAAlbifrons »

Fair enough, Brody.
Back to specifics..
Quite obviously to most reasonable people, (i claim), not self defence.
In any common understanding of the term.

- providing the report was correct in stating the dead man was unarmed. He was clearly not in close enough physical proximity to the shooter to bodily assault him.
You could possibly think up left-field scenarios where the dead guy was threatening the shooters life, but that would just be wriggling. imo.
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Re: Self defence or not... you be the judge

Post by Ravensnest »

Mishmash wrote: Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:06 am @SternAAlbifrons @AndyKK @Ravensnest

I see mention of statistics and personal opinions, so I ask your time to examine the facts... Source UNODC

Countries with low gun ownership % experience high % of intentional firearm homicides (Top is the Honduras with 91.6 homicides per 100,000 and a gun ownership of 6%)

Conversely, countries with high gun ownership % experience low % of intentional homicide rates (Iceland is top with 0.3 homicides per 100,000 yet 1 in 3 people own a firearm, France is 1.1 with again around 30% of people owning a firearm)

There are anomalies in some of the countries but the trend holds....

The US has 4.2 homicides per 100k - yet a massive 112% gun ownership rate

The death count so popularly used for the US (12,996 per year) is due to its large population.

More people get killed in Brazil for example (40,974) with 8% gun ownership or even worse is Indonesia (18,963) where only 0.5% of people own guns.

So all in all, there is definite correlation that private legal ownership of firearms by law abiding citizens makes life safer.

If you tabulate the statistics (ownership vs homicides) you will find that the US Ranks the 13th safest...

All the countries safer than the US have ownership rates ranging from 22% to 58%

The worst 18 countries all have ownership of 0.4% to 1.4%


For the record Cambodia ranks 78th and in comparison you are 20 times less safe than the US

I can send you the table if you need the hard data...
Thank you sir, I was lazy and didnt want to data hunt.
SternAAlbifrons wrote: Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:23 am We are not really Yank bashing,
No, you were. And why must mishmash provide more stats. Do your own research so you actually learn the truth, then post links. Ty
Still hunting for opium paraphernalia.
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Re: Self defence or not... you be the judge

Post by Mishmash »

SternAAlbifrons wrote: Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:47 am Yes please Mish, ^^^
source and detailed data please, including definitions and methodology - of this meaningless rubbish.

(you do realise you are going to get mercilessly slaughtered in the stats game i hope.
:-D :-D :-D.
I admire your reckless courage.
...and remember, you drew first)
Hahahah - I am not pro gun or anti gun just do the maths and no BS

Let me figure out how to send you.. The stats as i say are from the United Nations Office of Drugs and Crime.

Don't forget - everyone thinks US US US as they have the no permit required type of issue, but the majority of the world has "Shall issue" which means unless they can think up some stupid reason why a normal person can't have a firearm. Or "May Issue" which means you don't have a right, but in practice you will receive a permit. In fact, the most repressive gun laws are the Chinese and indonesia - so if you want to join the Chicom system you can go there - but expect a quick organ harvest if you fart in public. Or be blown away by the Indonesians for a few bucks.

I think you will be surprised how many people in this world actually legally own firearms but don't advertise the fact. it's certainly around the 25% mark.

Give me a little time to figure out how to send you.
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Re: Self defence or not... you be the judge

Post by Mishmash »

For the record on the OP topic - the video is from one perspective only - tough to call.

In fact, people say "don't bring a gun to a knife fight', whereas in reality in closed situations or within 25 metres, the knife is deadlier than the gun. You can look it up if you are interested.

People have been killing each other since the year dot and before firearms were invented - hell even Cain and Abel.

Utopia doesn't exist - ours is a blood soaked human sacrifice slaughterhouse.

Yet despite all that - we continue to thrive and grow and reach to the stars.

For the stats - here are the sources used to compile the data. Chew on that @SternAAlbifrons :beer3: should keep you busy for an hour or two over lunch :beer2:

Violence, Guns and Drugs: A Cross-Country Analysis, Jeffery A. Miron, Department of Economics, Boston University, University of Chicago Press Journal of Law & Economics, October 2001 ↩
Scotland tops list of world’s most violent countries, The Times, September 19, 2005 ↩
Minutes of Evidence, Colin Greenwood, Select Committee on Northern Ireland Affairs, January 29, 2003 ↩
Firearm ownership, Small Arms Survey 2007; Crime, United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime – compiled by The Guardian, Gun homicides and gun ownership listed by country ↩
In Switzerland, handguns are obtainable once a person obtains a simple police permit which is valid for six months. Federal law over weapons, weapon accessories and ammunition (weapon law, WG), Federal Assembly of the Swiss Confederation, May 2007 ↩
Carol Kalish, International Crime Rates, Bureau of Justice Statistics Special Report (Washington: Department of Justice, May 1988). 1984 data for Switzerland, and the 1983 data for England and Wales. ↩
Army rifles remain racked at home, Swiss Defense Ministry statement, May 15, 2004 ↩
Chocolates for guns? Brazil targets gun violence, Rubem César Fernandes, executive secretary of Viva Rio, a nongovernmental agency that studies urban crime, Christian Science Monitor, August 10, 1999 ↩
Homicide trends in the United States, U.S. data: Bureau of Justice Statistics, September, 2004. Brazil data: Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization, 2005. ↩
Targeting Guns, Gary Kleck, Aldine Transaction, 1997, at 360 ↩
Juristat: Crime Statistics in Canada, 2004 and FBI Uniform Crime Statistics online ↩
Canadian Firearms Legislation and Effects on Homicide 1974 to 2008, Caillin Langmann, Journal of Interpersonal Violence, September 30, 2011 ↩
Criminal Victimization in Seventeen Industrialized Countries, Dutch Ministry of Justice, 2001 ↩
A Comparison of Violent and Firearm Crime Rates in the Canadian Prairie Provinces and Four U.S. Border States, 1961-2003, Parliamentary Research Branch of the Library of Parliament, March 7, 2005 ↩
National Report by Finland, United Nations Office for Disarmament Affairs ↩
Pekka-Eric Auvinen shooting in Tuusula, Finland on November 8, 2007 ↩
Weapons sell for just £50 as suspects and victims grow ever younger, The Times, August 24, 2007 ↩
The most violent country in Europe: Britain is also worse than South Africa and U.S., Daily Mail, July 3, 2009, citing a joint report of the European Commission and United Nations ↩
YouGov survey of 2,156 residents in Sept 2007 ↩
British Home Office, reported by BBC news, July 12, 2002 ↩
Targeting Guns, Gary Kleck, Aldine Transaction, 1997, at 359 ↩
Minutes of Evidence, Colin Greenwood, Select Committee on Northern Ireland Affairs, January 29, 2003 ↩
Fear in Britain, Gallant, Hills, Kopel, Independence Institute, July 18, 2000 ↩
Crime Figures a Sham, Say Police, Daily Telegraph, April 1, 1996 ↩
Reported in The Guardian, September 3, 2000 ↩
42 killed by handguns last year, The Times, January 10, 2001, reporting on statistics supplied by the British Home Office ↩
Illegal Firearms in the UK, Centre for Defense Studies at King’s College in London, July 2001 ↩
Illegal Firearms in the UK, Centre for Defense Studies at King’s College in London, July 2001 ↩
Crime and Society in England 1750-1900, Clive Emsley, 1987, at 36 ↩
Where Kids and Guns Do Mix, Stephen P. Halbrook, Wall Street Journal, June 1999 ↩
Where Kids and Guns Do Mix, Stephen P. Halbrook, Wall Street Journal, June 1999 ↩
Associated News Media, April 30, 2001 ↩
Australia Institute of Criminology, AIC NHMP 1989/90 to 2011-12 ↩
Crime and Justice – Crimes Recorded by Police, Australian Bureau of Statistics, 2000 ↩
Report #46: Homicide in Australia, 2001-2002, Australian Institute of Criminology, April 2003 ↩
Costa targets armed robbers, The Sydney Morning Herald, April 4, 2002 ↩
Gun Laws and Sudden Death: Did the Australian Firearms Legislation of 1996 Make a Difference?, Dr. Jeanine Baker and Dr. Samara McPhedran, British Journal of Criminology, November 2006. ↩
Austrian firearms: data require cautious approach, S. McPhedran, S. McPhedran, and J. Baker, The British Journal of Psychiatry, 2007, 191:562 ↩
Australian firearms legislation and unintentional firearm deaths a theoretical explanation for the absence of decline following the 1996 gun laws Public Health, Samara McPhedran, Jeanine Baker, Public Health, Volume 122, Issue 3 ↩
Firearm Homicide in Australia, Canada, and New Zealand: What Can We Learn From Long- Term International Comparisons?, Samara McPhedran, Jeanine Baker, and Pooja Singh, Journal of Interpersonal Violence, March 16, 2010 ↩
Japan data: 1996 Demographic Yearbook, United Nations, 1998; US data: FBI Uniform Crime Statistics, 1996. ↩
Filipino gunsmiths are making a killing, Taipei Times, May 7, 2005 ↩
China Radio International Online, September 7, 2006 ↩
SOURCE: United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, 2010 ↩
Center for Disease Control WISQARS Fatal Injury Data is the National Vital Statistics System for 2010 ↩
World Health Organization, mortality database as of November 2006 ↩
Criminal Victimization in Seventeen Industrialized Countries, Dutch Ministry of Justice, 2001 ↩
Targeting Guns, Gary Kleck, Aldine Transaction, 1997 ↩
Mexico’s Massive Illegal weapons coming from China and the U.S., American Chronicle, March 14, 2009 ↩
The Myth of 90 Percent, Fox News, April 2, 2009, BATFE data distilled by William La Jeunesse and Maxim Lott ↩
Southwest Border Region–Drug Transportation and Homeland Security Issues, National Drug Intelligence Center, October 2007 ↩
Drug cartels’ new weaponry means war, Los Angeles Times, March 15, 2009 ↩
The Myth of 90 Percent, William La Jeunesse and Maxim Lott, Fox News, April 2, 2009 ↩
Senate Committee Judiciary, William Hoover, Assistant Director, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, & Firearms, March 17, 2009 ↩
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Re: Self defence or not... you be the judge

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Anthony's Weiner
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Re: Self defence or not... you be the judge

Post by Anthony's Weiner »

The video was provided by the store owner to back up his claim of self-defence. If someone were to attack me and my life was in danger, I should have the right to use lethal force to end the confrontation. I am not a gun owner but have empathy for someone who kills an intruder into their home and would not convict them of murder.

The store owner was charged with aggravated assault, not attempted murder. From the video, which he claims as his defence, I see no justification for raking the assailant's car with an AK47. My question was not should civilians be allowed weapons of war, but was the shooting justified and should the charge of aggravated assault be dismissed?

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Re: Self defence or not... you be the judge

Post by Mishmash »

Anthony's Weiner wrote: Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:21 pm The video was provided by the store owner to back up his claim of self-defence. If someone were to attack me and my life was in danger, I should have the right to use lethal force to end the confrontation. I am not a gun owner but have empathy for someone who kills an intruder into their home and would not convict them of murder.

The store owner was charged with aggravated assault, not attempted murder. From the video, which he claims as his defence, I see no justification for raking the assailant's car with an AK47. My question was not should civilians be allowed weapons of war, but was the shooting justified and should the charge of aggravated assault be dismissed?

As my above rant, we have no video showing the victim's point of view bro.. whether he was armed or presenting a danger. All i see are a few grainy vids.

Insufficient evidence really bro but a great pot-stirring thread you posted.

As an aside - civilians own self-defence weapons not 'weapons of war', and even then in most of the world firearm permits are not granted for 'self-defence' but for other reasons (even if they are actually bought with that purpose in mind) - you can check gun-laws by country for a breakdown.
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