Ethical Vegans seek legal protection

Yeah, that place out 'there'. Anything not really Cambodia related should go here.
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Ethical Vegans seek legal protection

Post by Doc67 » Fri Jan 03, 2020 9:24 am

There is a case going through the UK legal system at the moment brought by an 'ethical vegan' and he is claiming that ethical veganism should be classed as a philosophical belief, akin to a religious belief and as such a protected class in law. If successful, in practice this will provide another class of persons with rights of non-discrimination, such as sex or race discrimination.

His name is Jordi Casamitjana and he was dismissed from his employer, The League Against Cruel Sports.

It's only at the first tier Employment Tribunal in sleepy Norwich, but whatever the result it is almost certainly going to get appealed until such time it will become a binding legal precedent, possibly a Court of Appeal or Supreme Court one. It is an important little case.

My point is this; when will people realise that the more legal protections you have in employment law, the more commercially risky you become.

Vegans can't help talking about veganism and so their social media presence will likely 'out' themselves. HR people are good at background checks, they've never had it so good. Applicant's might even shout about it on their C.V. thinking veganism is a virtue.

Mr Casamitjana is no doubt enjoying his 15 minutes of fame. No doubt he thinks he is doing good things. He might well find future employment at an activist group or some such cheerleaders of his new found fame. But what about all the other vegans out there who will have their C'V's ignored because they now have legal protections way above the other 100 applicants?

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2020/ ... ical-vegan

"Dietary vegans and ethical vegans both eat a plant-based diet, but ethical vegans also try to exclude all forms of animal exploitation including not wearing clothing made from wool or leather and not using products tested on animals"

"Jordi Casamitjana says he was sacked by the League Against Cruel Sports after raising concerns that its pension fund was being invested in companies involved in animal testing.
He claims he was unfairly disciplined for making this disclosure and that the decision to dismiss him was because of his philosophical belief in ethical veganism"
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Re: Ethical Vegans seek legal protection

Post by cptrelentless » Fri Jan 03, 2020 10:07 am

Doc67 wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2020 9:24 am

My point is this; when will people realise that the more legal protections you have in employment law, the more commercially risky you become.
Spoken like a true American patriot. Look at the state of Germany's pathetic economy, with their worker's rights... Oh.

Here in the civilised world, I think we're 8th largest economy at the moment, pretty sure Germany is about 5th, you can't just get shit-canned on a whim. There needs to be due process, and that's why we have tribunals. Does it make it commercially risky? No, in fact it makes the economy more stable as you don't have sudden waves of retrenchment every time there's a fart in the market, dumping masses of employees on the state. Commercial operations in the EU and Scandi countries still pay plenty of dividends. As to this dumbass's complaint, veganism is not a recognised religion, and won't be because there's no main church or hierarchy of control that the state can identify - corporations are only obliged to make reasonable efforts to encompass people's beliefs, take a fairly recent case where a muslim checkout worker refused to ring up pork products. That got chucked out and so will this.
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Re: Ethical Vegans seek legal protection

Post by Doc67 » Fri Jan 03, 2020 10:48 am

cptrelentless wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2020 10:07 am
Doc67 wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2020 9:24 am

My point is this; when will people realise that the more legal protections you have in employment law, the more commercially risky you become.
Spoken like a true American patriot. Look at the state of Germany's pathetic economy, with their worker's rights... Oh.

Here in the civilised world, I think we're 8th largest economy at the moment, pretty sure Germany is about 5th, you can't just get shit-canned on a whim. There needs to be due process, and that's why we have tribunals. Does it make it commercially risky? No, in fact it makes the economy more stable as you don't have sudden waves of retrenchment every time there's a fart in the market, dumping masses of employees on the state. Commercial operations in the EU and Scandi countries still pay plenty of dividends. As to this dumbass's complaint, veganism is not a recognised religion, and won't be because there's no main church or hierarchy of control that the state can identify - corporations are only obliged to make reasonable efforts to encompass people's beliefs, take a fairly recent case where a muslim checkout worker refused to ring up pork products. That got chucked out and so will this.
erm… I am English, not American.

The case is not about classing veganism as a religion. It is about classing veganism as a philosophical or a religious belief. They are claiming on one with an alternative. I think it is likely to fail on the second but the first is arguable. (He can get legal aid for an appeal as well).
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Re: Ethical Vegans seek legal protection

Post by BR549 » Fri Jan 03, 2020 11:50 am

The number 1 economy in the World is the USA. For decades, you could wake up one day and find your job of years had relocated to another country. Then, the entire town died.
A businessman ran for President promising to punish greedy companies that did this and he was elected. In the last 3 years the economy is aecond to none and he kept his promises. More people working than ever before. Minority unemployement lowest in history. Minority employment highest in history. Wages rising for blue collar worksr at a higher percentage than white collar. Female unemployment record low.
Trillions in growth. Stock market all time bigh.
Energy Independence. New trade deals aimed at helping the citizens of the USA. These are facts.
In a number of cities the minimum wage has been set at $15/hour. This is for people who have never held a job and have no or few skills.
The ripple effect forces companies to raise the pay of their workforce who do have skill learned on the job.
It is supposed to be a good law and help the lower tier workers.
In fact, it has the opposite effect and the proof is easily found. Take a look at fast food. The industry has decided to retool. It is moving towards automation. It was just recently announced that Burger King was closing hundreds of outlets..Not for good. No, to refit them with self ordering systems.
Drive up self ordering..robotic kitchens and eliminating entirely the need for $15/hour entey level staff. Jeff Besos is doing even more at Amazon.
In fact, the robotic age is coming.
Germany signed an agreement to invest 2% of its GDP in NATO military funding. It has blossomed post WW2 into a leading economic power. Why has it not kept its promise? Why below 1%?
Funny how easy it is to grow your economy when other countries are paying for your very existence.
The civilized World?
I lived and worked in California for years and I am totally cool with vegans and not wearing leather.
That is up to them. Wear hemp everything..
I suggest that they should not work at a slaughterhouse or hamburger joint.
Nor should a Muslim or a Jew work in the pork industry.
The leader of Cambodia told a crowd not too long ago to eat eggs...don't eat chicken.
He knows the economy rides on the whims of the globalists witb their charts telling them how much a month a worker is paid...the work ethic...National Holidays..etc
From a managemt perspective. the vegan dude is just another issue that fucks up production.
Calling this a worker's right and making some legal precedent out of it will just cause a lot of workers hardship.
Business is smarter than government.
Over regulation and red tape just stifle growth.
Without growth...no new jobs.
So many experts in government at spending other people's money and none of them have a clue how to make any.
I lived with a vegan for 2 years.
I pointed out to her that her vegan burger was being cooked on the same flat top as the beef burgers.
Her fries were in the same fryer as the chicken.
We found some vegan restaurants to go to and they were great.
The elite vegans need to get together and start elite vegan companies.
Then, a wurst eating German can sue because she was fired for bringing a sausage to work.
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Re: Ethical Vegans seek legal protection

Post by Anchor Moy » Fri Jan 03, 2020 12:14 pm

Doc67 wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2020 9:24 am

"Jordi Casamitjana says he was sacked by the League Against Cruel Sports after raising concerns that its pension fund was being invested in companies involved in animal testing.
He claims he was unfairly disciplined for making this disclosure and that the decision to dismiss him was because of his philosophical belief in ethical veganism"
I don't see what this has to do with vegans at all. I am not a vegan, but I find that it would be unethical for an NGO that works to protect animals, The League Against Cruel Sports, to invest in companies involved in animal testing. Just like an NGO for world peace should not invest in weapons, Greenpeace should not invest in coal plants etc. I think people who support these NGOs have a right to transparency and information on what they do with their money.
In this case, they fired him because he is an ethical whistle-blower, not because he is an ethical vegan. However, maybe his accusations are incorrect, and that would be reason for dismissal. Hopefully, the facts will come out at the trial.
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Re: Ethical Vegans seek legal protection

Post by pczz » Fri Jan 03, 2020 12:21 pm

When is someone going to start an organisation to protect the rights of all these poor vegetables being experimented on and myurdered in their millions byt vegetarians and vegans. they don't even stun poor carrots, they are thrown alive into the saucepan. disgraceful. lets stop veggie sufferring today
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Re: Ethical Vegans seek legal protection

Post by Anthony's Weiner » Fri Jan 03, 2020 12:48 pm

BR549 wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2020 11:50 am
The number 1 economy in the World is the USA. For decades, you could wake up one day and find your job of years had relocated to another country. Then, the entire town died.
A businessman ran for President promising to punish greedy companies that did this and he was elected. In the last 3 years the economy is aecond to none and he kept his promises. More people working than ever before. Minority unemployement lowest in history. Minority employment highest in history. Wages rising for blue collar worksr at a higher percentage than white collar. Female unemployment record low.
Trillions in growth. Stock market all time bigh.
Energy Independence. New trade deals aimed at helping the citizens of the USA. These are facts.
In a number of cities the minimum wage has been set at $15/hour. This is for people who have never held a job and have no or few skills.
The ripple effect forces companies to raise the pay of their workforce who do have skill learned on the job.
It is supposed to be a good law and help the lower tier workers.
In fact, it has the opposite effect and the proof is easily found. Take a look at fast food. The industry has decided to retool. It is moving towards automation. It was just recently announced that Burger King was closing hundreds of outlets..Not for good. No, to refit them with self ordering systems.
Drive up self ordering..robotic kitchens and eliminating entirely the need for $15/hour entey level staff. Jeff Besos is doing even more at Amazon.
In fact, the robotic age is coming.
Germany signed an agreement to invest 2% of its GDP in NATO military funding. It has blossomed post WW2 into a leading economic power. Why has it not kept its promise? Why below 1%?
Funny how easy it is to grow your economy when other countries are paying for your very existence.
The civilized World?
I lived and worked in California for years and I am totally cool with vegans and not wearing leather.
That is up to them. Wear hemp everything..
I suggest that they should not work at a slaughterhouse or hamburger joint.
Nor should a Muslim or a Jew work in the pork industry.
The leader of Cambodia told a crowd not too long ago to eat eggs...don't eat chicken.
He knows the economy rides on the whims of the globalists witb their charts telling them how much a month a worker is paid...the work ethic...National Holidays..etc
From a managemt perspective. the vegan dude is just another issue that fucks up production.
Calling this a worker's right and making some legal precedent out of it will just cause a lot of workers hardship.
Business is smarter than government.
Over regulation and red tape just stifle growth.
Without growth...no new jobs.
So many experts in government at spending other people's money and none of them have a clue how to make any.
I lived with a vegan for 2 years.
I pointed out to her that her vegan burger was being cooked on the same flat top as the beef burgers.
Her fries were in the same fryer as the chicken.
We found some vegan restaurants to go to and they were great.
The elite vegans need to get together and start elite vegan companies.
Then, a wurst eating German can sue because she was fired for bringing a sausage to work.

A businessman ran for President promising to punish greedy companies that did this and he was elected.


Said businessman's companies have declared bankruptcy 6 times leaving how many American businesses holding worthless debt? How did they pay their workers or for the materials the bought to supply said businessman?

In 2017, the top 10 corporate executives in America saw their combined compensation skyrocket by over 60% from the year before soaring to $1.85bn.

The top 25 hedge fund managers on Wall Street made over $15.3bn in compensation in 2017, up 40% from 2016 – the highest in four years. Incredibly, this $15.3bn is nearly double what all 140,000 kindergarten teachers in America made last year.

Over the past year, wages for average workers are up by 1.2% – just $9.11 a week after adjusting for inflation.

The truth is that the average worker makes less today than he or she made 43 years ago after adjusting for inflation.

Nearly 80% of workers live paycheck to paycheck – hoping that they don’t get sick or that their car doesn’t break down.

It’s not the “greatest” economy in “the history of America” when 43% of households can’t afford to pay for housing, food, childcare, healthcare, transportation and a cellphone without going into debt.

Over 30 million Americans have no health insurance, one out of five Americans can’t afford the medicine prescribed by their doctors and over 40 million Americans are living in poverty.

Since the Wall Street crash, 46% of all new income that has been created in the US has gone to the top 1%. Corporate CEOs have seen their incomes go up by 937% over the past 40 years and now make over 360 times more than their average workers. While corporate profits are near an all-time high, wages as a percentage of the economy are near an all-time low.

In America today, the top 0.1% owns almost as much wealth as the bottom 90%. The three wealthiest people in this country own more wealth than the bottom half of Americans – 160 million people.

We could talk using facts or we could just post what tRump says. Go into a McDonald's or a Walmart, why are there 70 year olds working?
In the Trump economy the failed CEO of Boeing took a payout would take a minimum wage earner 1606 years of working 8 hours a day, 365 days a year to earn.

Workers rights are bad, overpaid CEO's are good. Sorry brother, I am not interested in drinking the koolaid you are passing out.
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Re: Ethical Vegans seek legal protection

Post by Doc67 » Sat Jan 04, 2020 7:55 am

...UPDATE...

The tribunal rules that Ethical Veganism is a belief protected by law. With that element decided the hearing now move on to decide whether he was dismissed because of those beliefs or by virtue of his misconduct.

“This was the first of a two-part employment tribunal,” he said. “Now the question of ethical veganism has been determined by the judge, the litigation will move on to determine the lawfulness of Jordi’s treatment by the League Against Cruel Sports"

The employers, the L.A.C.S. did not even contest this element. This is important as if they lose the second phase and then decide to appeal the ruling, the appeal will be limited to the decision in the second part; they are stuck with the finding in the first part because of their non contention of the issue.

This is a bad way to create law. I hope anyone else bringing a case under this ruling will find a more robust employer who will test this properly during an appeal process.

“In view of its animal welfare value, the league did not contest the issue of whether ethical veganism itself should be a protected belief, with the league maintaining that it’s irrelevant to the core reason for the dismissal"


"Any precedent set by the ruling could prove difficult for businesses", according to Helen Crossland, a partner at Seddons, who was not involved in the case

“Employers always run the risk of an employee claiming that discrimination is a factor in their dismissal, such as here,” she said. “Unless overturned on appeal, employers should expect to see legal protection extended to other beliefs, particularly as they become more established in society.’
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Re: Ethical Vegans seek legal protection

Post by Doc67 » Sat Jan 04, 2020 10:41 am

I just heard on the radio that this guy is so extreme, he will not even get on a bus in case the windscreen hits a bug and kills it. I shit you not...

If ever there was someone you want as far away from your payroll as possible, he is it.
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