america's involvement in Afghanistan closes

Yeah, that place out 'there'. Anything not really Cambodia related should go here.
Kahuna
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Re: america's involvement in Afghanistan closes

Post by Kahuna »

ImageImageImageI spent some time in Afghanistan at Tarin Kowt at Camp Holland which was a multi-national base between Kandahar and Kabul. Basically there were 3 RAAF members and 3 counterparts from the army to provide ground handling (cargo was anything from fresh food to high explosives as well as passengers both civilian and military) for all aircraft arriving and departing from what was at the time just a dirt strip. After I left it was updated to full length all weather bitumen tarmac but as the entire camp was pulled down after the withdrawal of first the Dutch and then Australian and American forces I'm not sure if they left it. Our base did not have any permanent aircraft apart from Apache attack helicopters flown by the Dutch air force as the base was merely a transit stop. Leaving anything of size and value for example a C17 or Hercules on the ground for any length of time would have been too tempting so where possible the aircraft were left engines running and unloading/loading was done in record times. If an aircraft was for whatever reason scheduled to be on the ground for any period of time because of the cargo to be loaded on or off then patrols would be sent out and into the surrounding hills for protection.

Could that war be won? Good question but in answering you have to take into account so much apart from Good vs Bad. First of all as @SternAAlbifrons mentioned in his post, Afghanistan is made up from a wide mixture of tribes. It always has been and always will be. Different religions and the Muslim religion is made up of many versions in itself, different tribes, different ways of life. Allegiances vary almost daily, blood feuds are common, your friend today is your enemy tomorrow depending on how much money is passed between hands or other trades including opium. A Taliban or Al Qaeda fighter could be someone who for $5 US dollars, was the day before just a simple farmer and after he's fired a few rounds or planted the IED he goes back to his patch of dirt and his way of life with money that would make him rich enough to feed the family for a month. Some of these fighters were from the African states and some were from the Eastern European bloc of nations. They came because they believed in their cause. They didn't wear uniforms and so could blend in with the population because as I said before some of them were people who had waved at the soldiers from their fields the day before, they carried weapons that ranged from rusty rifles that were literally ancient in a modern world to weapons that were high tech in some instances. Money from the opium, from various backers, weapons left over from the Russians, weapons provided by Middle Eastern countries. There was more countries involved than just Afghanistan and the coalition force countries.
To be honest I supported the war and to a great degree I still do but I like so many others don't think there was an achievable solution at least in the way it was conducted. The Afghan people now have a system of government that's true but that central government rules for the most part over the capital of Kabul. That is basically the extent of their power apart from provincial governors who may be aligned with the president at the time but none the less could still change sides depending on how they want to be seen. The Central government does not have the following of the people as they follow their own tribal lines first, family second, their land and any animals are their only assets would come third and they have little time for politics and what it entails so it is a far distant fourth if not further down the list of priority.
The amount of money the conflict cost is indescribable and yet while I was there I would listen to the briefings and there would be lists of the project to help the people in the way of schools, wells, paved roads, crops, housing, medical aid in the form of clinics running between villages, improving government services which would all last a short period of time before the Taliban would come in and destroy it. They had no scruples and more than one school was destroyed and the children attending were killed as the Taliban had no desire for any other way of life apart from the laws they imposed. Killing people was to prove that they could control the population by fear. Age or sex was not a factor. I remember one briefing when we were told about a civilian contractor convoy which was attacked by Taliban. Fifty trucks were destroyed. Almost half the drivers and crews were killed in the initial ambush and the bodies of about 75 others were found a few days later when the Taliban decided they were not worth keeping and shot them. All of them were from the Philippines just trying to make money to send home to their families. That was almost a weekly occurrence. At times they would destroy only the vehicles and others they would kill the drivers and crews and destroy the vehicles.
The other side of the story was the corruption that was rampant within the government from the highest levels down to the local police. For instance, locals would be brought into the camp for questioning if there was a suspicion of involvement with either Al Qaeda or the Taliban and to the best of my knowledge there was never any instance of torture conducted at any stage at Camp Holland. I listened into a couple of interrogations performed by the Australian special forces and they way it was conducted was through the use of a very strong and disciplined voice from the interrogator but I remember thinking that if I was in that chair I would be spilling out anything I knew such was the effect. Locals would also come into for compensation money if for instance their house door was kicked in during a search or their field of crops was driven over they could then make a claim which would be paid quite generously. Yes it was also open to abuse which was widespread when people learn how to abuse the system. But after they were paid and they would leave the camp then local police and or soldiers would pull them up and take their own version of tea money knowing where they had been and how much they would have been paid. They did this because a lot of the the time they themselves had not been paid as the money allocated had been siphoned off from those at the top.
I haven't as yet read the articles about China looking to move into the space left by the coalition but it would make sense for them to do so. They are already encroaching on disputed territory in Northern India, they have a great deal of sway already in Pakistan, we are fully aware of their approach to various countries in SE Asia (Laos, Cambodia and even Thailand to some extent) and the inclusion of a foothold not through military means (as I said I haven't read the articles so I am surmising that it will be using vast sums of money) in Afghanistan. They then would have a friendly neighbour on one side, Pakistan, and the vast oil fields of Iran on the other where the controlling government made up of what could be deemed in some cases as religious fanatics is not a great fan of the USA as it is.
I wanted to add some photos from my time there but they are on the computer back in Australia so I grabbed these off the Australian War Memorial website.
Maximus was a self propelled artillery piece that would drive up to a hillside just out of camp and provide fire support missions from time to time.
A photo of a sentry box on the possibly inner perimeter of the camp. This one is a lot superior to the one we had when I was there which was basically less protected but did the job.
And for @Brody and @Grand Barong (thanks for adding the F111 and Caribou vids to the Aviation folder) the last photo which shows a RAAF C130-J landing on the old dirt strip. Generally we handled the H Model Hercules and both American and RAAF C17's so the photo must have been after I left.
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nemo
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Re: america's involvement in Afghanistan closes

Post by nemo »

Imagine if all that money had been used at home on health, education and infrastructure.
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Re: america's involvement in Afghanistan closes

Post by Clutch Cargo »

What was the point of being there? The ruskies got their arses whipped there before (and the Brits before that)?

Some history lessons are not learned. Hitler didn't learn from Napoleon invading Russia and what brought them down were stretched supply lines and vicious Russian winters.

And you'd think the US would have learnt from French who fought a tough war to hang on to Indochina culminating with the defeat at Dien Bien Phu.

And Iraq and WOMD..
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Jerry Atrick
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Re: america's involvement in Afghanistan closes

Post by Jerry Atrick »

Occupation of Afghanistan isn't an easy task

They have been fucking up vastly superiorly armed and financed invading forces for millenia
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nemo
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Re: america's involvement in Afghanistan closes

Post by nemo »

China is up next.
They will go for the Lithium and other Rare Earths.
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Re: america's involvement in Afghanistan closes

Post by SternAAlbifrons »

If China goes next, will they be more successful than anyone else?
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Re: america's involvement in Afghanistan closes

Post by Apollo91881 »

SternAAlbifrons wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 8:06 pm If China goes next, will they be more successful than anyone else?
I imagine they won’t have a little thing like ROE get in their way or any other little considerations
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nemo
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Re: america's involvement in Afghanistan closes

Post by nemo »

If they use money rather than arms maybe.
The Uighur thing may fuck the deal though.
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John Bingham
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Re: america's involvement in Afghanistan closes

Post by John Bingham »

SternAAlbifrons wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 8:06 pm If China goes next, will they be more successful than anyone else?
That's a good question. It's all up in the air right now though, we'll have to see what happens in the next few months but it seem inevitable that there will be further war with the Taleban and quite possible they will again take power. That country is an utter disaster, there's no hope for it. 8-)
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Re: america's involvement in Afghanistan closes

Post by nemo »

The Taliban is in control now. The Army is handing over to them.
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