Another Cambodia-Thailand's Cultural Matter Dispute

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Re: Another Cambodia-Thailand's Cultural Matter Dispute

Post by Jamie_Lambo » Fri Jun 10, 2016 6:25 pm

phuketrichard wrote:
So they stole the Khmers traditional dancing, then when things got stable after the dark ages when the French came over to colonize and give cambodia protection, Thailand gave them their dance back but said its ours now? lol
Nobody stole anything.
the dance, the music, the building, all came from somewhere else, but each country adapted the form and made it their own.

Look at Koh Ker, look at the Pyramids
hundreds of examples to choose from :beer3:
haha it was only a jokey comment lol :thumb: :beer3:
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Re: Another Cambodia-Thailand's Cultural Matter Dispute

Post by Timothy » Sat Jun 11, 2016 9:09 am

The KING RAMA III OF SIAM sent troop of Siamese Army to Kampuchea to save Khmer culture from destroying by Vietnam.Back then they killed all VIP included arts ,books and any of knowledge providers of KHMER CUlTURE.Royall families were killed excepted females,they were send to marriage Vietnamese royal men.This took 10 years to save Kampuchea,during that time Kampuchea prince was in Bangkok all along.

Just to remind you that Vietnam did a pretty good job whiping out JAMPA CULTURE in Vietnam.

To restore all missing parts ,KING RAMA III sent all artists,teachetrs of all kinds to rebuild well-being of KAMPUCHEA CULTURE.This was in the time of the name "Siam"still exist.Just imagine there were no TEACHERS OF TRUE KHMER CULTURE around.KING RAMA III still did his best to rebuild KAMPUCHEA CULTURE because it was a part of Siam too.
Until Franch discovered SOUTHEAST ASIA .Siam didn't have a choice but to tricked Franch to take only parts of Siam(those parts were :Vietnam Laos and KAMPUCHEA). In meanwhile Siam had to give some other parts to British.(Maleysia and Burma)

KAMPUCHEA CULTURE was wiped out again by VIETNAM WAR in 70s.
Last edited by Timothy on Sat Jun 11, 2016 10:53 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Another Cambodia-Thailand's Cultural Matter Dispute

Post by Timothy » Sat Jun 11, 2016 9:19 am

So pass it on
Last edited by Timothy on Sat Jun 11, 2016 10:45 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Another Cambodia-Thailand's Cultural Matter Dispute

Post by phuketrichard » Sat Jun 11, 2016 9:24 am

Until Franch discovered SOUTHEAST ASIA .Siam didn't have a choice but to tricked Franch to take only parts of Siam. In meanwhile Siam had to give some other parts to British.
:facepalm: :stir:
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Re: Another Cambodia-Thailand's Cultural Matter Dispute

Post by Timothy » Sat Jun 11, 2016 11:06 am

It's France LOL not Franch ,my mistake :ROFL:
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Re: Another Cambodia-Thailand's Cultural Matter Dispute

Post by ot mien kampf » Sat Jun 11, 2016 11:38 am

Timothy wrote:The KING RAMA III OF SIAM sent troop of Siamese Army to Kampuchea to save Khmer culture from destroying by Vietnam.Back then they killed all VIP included arts ,books and any of knowledge providers of KHMER CUlTURE.Royall families were killed excepted females,they were send to marriage Vietnamese royal men.This took 10 years to save Kampuchea,during that time Kampuchea prince was in Bangkok all along.

Just to remind you that Vietnam did a pretty good job whiping out JAMPA CULTURE in Vietnam.

To restore all missing parts ,KING RAMA III sent all artists,teachetrs of all kinds to rebuild well-being of KAMPUCHEA CULTURE.This was in the time of the name "Siam"still exist.Just imagine there were no TEACHERS OF TRUE KHMER CULTURE around.KING RAMA III still did his best to rebuild KAMPUCHEA CULTURE because it was a part of Siam too.
Until Franch discovered SOUTHEAST ASIA .Siam didn't have a choice but to tricked Franch to take only parts of Siam(those parts were :Vietnam Laos and KAMPUCHEA). In meanwhile Siam had to give some other parts to British.(Maleysia and Burma)

KAMPUCHEA CULTURE was wiped out again by VIETNAM WAR in 70s.
Taksin expanded Thonburi in every direction and annexed parts of Cambodia, while demanding suzerainty from the Khmer monarchs. The Siamese were exerting influence over Cambodia throughout most of the 19th century. There was an uprising in Cambodia during 1811 when the two states fought about one Siamese supported king overthrowing a Vietnamese supported one.

Under the rule of Rama III there were several Siam-Viet wars in the 1830s in which the Siamese lost control of Phnom Penh to the Vietnamese and retook it in 1842. You're misconstruing the reason why the Siamese joined those wars though, it was to support an uprising in Vietnam so the Siamese could install a faithful ruler. The Siamese contribution was initially beaten and they lost control of parts of Cambodia. The rest of the war was fought to regain them.

Then in 1863 the French established the Cambodian protectorate after taking over Vietnam.
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Re: Another Cambodia-Thailand's Cultural Matter Dispute

Post by Timothy » Sat Jun 11, 2016 12:13 pm

:good:
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Re: Another Cambodia-Thailand's Cultural Matter Dispute

Post by mushrooms » Mon Jun 13, 2016 3:07 am

Jamie_Lambo wrote:
mushrooms wrote:
Jamie_Lambo wrote:
mushrooms wrote:
dopmoto wrote:
samouth thai stole more cultures than you think.

the whole culture of thailand is just bits and pieces of other cultures.
We can say the same about Cambodian culture too. It's time for Cambodians to finally recognize that they owe a lot of their cultural richness to the Thais. Of course this will probably never happen because Cambodians think they created everything.
.
Thailand?
you mean India surely? Cambodia was originally Hindu, and had Buddhism as a secondary religion as far back as 500BC in the Funan Kingdom, Buddhism came from India and was adopted as the countries main religion during the Angkor period (which modern day Thailand was apart of) the Khmers were building buddhist temples in Thailand before the Sukhothai + Ayutthaya kingdoms had even adopted Buddhism as the state religion...
a lot of Cambodia culture also comes from India, Apsara/Devata Dancers etc is another thing that comes from india...
Thailands National/Traditional clothing is based on the traditional clothing from the old cambodian Funan kingdom

what cultural richness's did Cambodia get from the Thais?
Directly from India? That's debatable. I believe it was the Chams and Sailendra (Javanese) that brought over Indian culture to Cambodia. So there is a layer of some other cultures in the "Indian culture" that ancient Cambodians adopted.

The Buddhism that exists in Cambodia today is not the same as that which existed in the Angkor period and before. Another thing that owes it self to Thai influence. The two Buddhist sects today are based on Thai Buddhism and probably was influence from Burmese Buddhism in turn.

What I am saying is, Thai culture flourished in the Ayuthaya and Ratanakosin period. The wealth they garnered in these periods brought on new, creative changes to culture and were unlike anything that they may have taken from the ancient Khmers. They mish-mashed ideas from various cultures, from the Malays, to the Burmese, to the Chinese. The Thais actually insist a lot of the present-day classical dance we see in Thailand and Cambodia ultimately comes from Malay folk dances/rituals. The Thais refined this in the Ayuthaya era and it slowly evolved into what is now. And Cambodia receiving this dance culture somewhere in the 1800s.

And apsara dance is just a facade, it uses present-day classical dance and puts on garb inspired by the bas-reliefs.
im too hungover for this im off copying and pasting again lol

the Khmer + Thai Language comes from India (sanskrit + Pali)
why would the Chams (muslims) bring over hinduism and buddhism?
By the second century C.E. Funan controlled the strategic coastline of Indochina and the maritime trade routes. Cultural and religious ideas reached Funan via the Indian Ocean trade route. Trade with India had commenced well before 500 BC as Sanskrit hadn't yet replaced Pali.[44] Indian author Dr. Pragya Mishra observes: "Funan Was One Of The Colonies Established By Indians Within Cambodia...[sic]" in his essay "Cultural History of Indian Diaspora in Cambodia".[45] Funans language has been determined as to have been an early form of Khmer and its written form was Sanskrit.[46]
Hindu + Buddhist influences came through to Java in the 5th Century through the same India trade routes
Hindu and Buddhist influences arrived through trade contacts with the Indian subcontinent.[20] Hindu and Buddhist proselytizers arrived in the 5th century.
Theravada Buddhism comes from Sri Lanka, not Thailand??
During the 5th to 13th centuries, Southeast Asian empires were influenced directly from India and followed Mahayana Buddhism. The Chinese pilgrim Yijing noted in his travels that in these areas, all major sects of Indian Buddhism flourished.[3] Srivijaya to the south and the Khmer Empire to the north competed for influence and their art expressed the rich Mahāyāna pantheon of bodhisattvas. From the 9th to the 13th centuries, the Mahāyāna and Hindu Khmer Empire dominated much of the Southeast Asian peninsula. Under the Khmer Empire, more than 900 temples were built in Cambodia and in neighboring Thailand.

After the decline of Buddhism in India, missions of Sinhalese monks gradually converted the Mon people and the Pyu city-states from Ari Buddhism to Theravāda and over the next two centuries also brought Theravāda Buddhism to the Bamar people, Thailand, Laos and Cambodia, where it supplanted previous forms of Buddhism.[4]
King Jayavarman VII had sent his son Tamalinda to Sri Lanka to be ordained as a Buddhist monk and study Theravada Buddhism according to the Pali scriptural traditions. Tamalinda then returned to Cambodia and promoted Buddhist traditions according to the Theravada training he had received, galvanizing and energizing the long-standing Theravada presence that had existed throughout the Angkor empire for centuries.
The post-Angkor period saw the dramatic rise of the Pali Theravada tradition in Southeast Asia and concomitant decline of the Brahmanic and Mahayana Buddhist religious traditions. A 1423 Thai account of a mission to Sri Lanka mentions eight Khmer monks who again brought orthodox Mahavihara sect of Singhalese order to Kampuchea.
again i dont see how you can say Thailand have been the biggest influence on the Khmer culture, when its clearly India... must be trolling lol

I never said Thailand invented Theravada Buddhism. I assume we all know Theravada's stronghold is Sri Lanka. But the Thais had a strong grasp over the royal family of Cambodia. They brought over a lot of Thai influences into Cambodia during the 1800s.

What I am saying, Cambodia absorbed it's current cultural richness from Thailand (or Siam back then). There are things in Khmero-Thai culture that doesn't exist in India obviously. These things are a mark of Thai cultural inventions.
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Re: Another Cambodia-Thailand's Cultural Matter Dispute

Post by John Bingham » Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:11 am

Jamie Lambo wrote:the Khmer + Thai Language comes from India (sanskrit + Pali)
why would the Chams (muslims) bring over hinduism and buddhism?
Champa was originally a Hindu kingdom.
Timothy wrote:Siam didn't have a choice but to tricked Franch to take only parts of Siam(those parts were :Vietnam Laos and KAMPUCHEA). In meanwhile Siam had to give some other parts to British.(Maleysia and Burma)
Vietnam, Malaysia and Burma were never parts of Siam. Parts of Laos and Cambodia may have been under Thai control at times but I don't believe could have been considered "parts of Siam" either.
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Re: Another Cambodia-Thailand's Cultural Matter Dispute

Post by Jamie_Lambo » Mon Jun 13, 2016 1:43 pm

mushrooms wrote:
Jamie_Lambo wrote:
mushrooms wrote:
Jamie_Lambo wrote:
mushrooms wrote:
We can say the same about Cambodian culture too. It's time for Cambodians to finally recognize that they owe a lot of their cultural richness to the Thais. Of course this will probably never happen because Cambodians think they created everything.
.
Thailand?
you mean India surely? Cambodia was originally Hindu, and had Buddhism as a secondary religion as far back as 500BC in the Funan Kingdom, Buddhism came from India and was adopted as the countries main religion during the Angkor period (which modern day Thailand was apart of) the Khmers were building buddhist temples in Thailand before the Sukhothai + Ayutthaya kingdoms had even adopted Buddhism as the state religion...
a lot of Cambodia culture also comes from India, Apsara/Devata Dancers etc is another thing that comes from india...
Thailands National/Traditional clothing is based on the traditional clothing from the old cambodian Funan kingdom

what cultural richness's did Cambodia get from the Thais?
Directly from India? That's debatable. I believe it was the Chams and Sailendra (Javanese) that brought over Indian culture to Cambodia. So there is a layer of some other cultures in the "Indian culture" that ancient Cambodians adopted.

The Buddhism that exists in Cambodia today is not the same as that which existed in the Angkor period and before. Another thing that owes it self to Thai influence. The two Buddhist sects today are based on Thai Buddhism and probably was influence from Burmese Buddhism in turn.

What I am saying is, Thai culture flourished in the Ayuthaya and Ratanakosin period. The wealth they garnered in these periods brought on new, creative changes to culture and were unlike anything that they may have taken from the ancient Khmers. They mish-mashed ideas from various cultures, from the Malays, to the Burmese, to the Chinese. The Thais actually insist a lot of the present-day classical dance we see in Thailand and Cambodia ultimately comes from Malay folk dances/rituals. The Thais refined this in the Ayuthaya era and it slowly evolved into what is now. And Cambodia receiving this dance culture somewhere in the 1800s.

And apsara dance is just a facade, it uses present-day classical dance and puts on garb inspired by the bas-reliefs.
im too hungover for this im off copying and pasting again lol

the Khmer + Thai Language comes from India (sanskrit + Pali)
why would the Chams (muslims) bring over hinduism and buddhism?
By the second century C.E. Funan controlled the strategic coastline of Indochina and the maritime trade routes. Cultural and religious ideas reached Funan via the Indian Ocean trade route. Trade with India had commenced well before 500 BC as Sanskrit hadn't yet replaced Pali.[44] Indian author Dr. Pragya Mishra observes: "Funan Was One Of The Colonies Established By Indians Within Cambodia...[sic]" in his essay "Cultural History of Indian Diaspora in Cambodia".[45] Funans language has been determined as to have been an early form of Khmer and its written form was Sanskrit.[46]
Hindu + Buddhist influences came through to Java in the 5th Century through the same India trade routes
Hindu and Buddhist influences arrived through trade contacts with the Indian subcontinent.[20] Hindu and Buddhist proselytizers arrived in the 5th century.
Theravada Buddhism comes from Sri Lanka, not Thailand??
During the 5th to 13th centuries, Southeast Asian empires were influenced directly from India and followed Mahayana Buddhism. The Chinese pilgrim Yijing noted in his travels that in these areas, all major sects of Indian Buddhism flourished.[3] Srivijaya to the south and the Khmer Empire to the north competed for influence and their art expressed the rich Mahāyāna pantheon of bodhisattvas. From the 9th to the 13th centuries, the Mahāyāna and Hindu Khmer Empire dominated much of the Southeast Asian peninsula. Under the Khmer Empire, more than 900 temples were built in Cambodia and in neighboring Thailand.

After the decline of Buddhism in India, missions of Sinhalese monks gradually converted the Mon people and the Pyu city-states from Ari Buddhism to Theravāda and over the next two centuries also brought Theravāda Buddhism to the Bamar people, Thailand, Laos and Cambodia, where it supplanted previous forms of Buddhism.[4]
King Jayavarman VII had sent his son Tamalinda to Sri Lanka to be ordained as a Buddhist monk and study Theravada Buddhism according to the Pali scriptural traditions. Tamalinda then returned to Cambodia and promoted Buddhist traditions according to the Theravada training he had received, galvanizing and energizing the long-standing Theravada presence that had existed throughout the Angkor empire for centuries.
The post-Angkor period saw the dramatic rise of the Pali Theravada tradition in Southeast Asia and concomitant decline of the Brahmanic and Mahayana Buddhist religious traditions. A 1423 Thai account of a mission to Sri Lanka mentions eight Khmer monks who again brought orthodox Mahavihara sect of Singhalese order to Kampuchea.
again i dont see how you can say Thailand have been the biggest influence on the Khmer culture, when its clearly India... must be trolling lol

I never said Thailand invented Theravada Buddhism. I assume we all know Theravada's stronghold is Sri Lanka. But the Thais had a strong grasp over the royal family of Cambodia. They brought over a lot of Thai influences into Cambodia during the 1800s.

What I am saying, Cambodia absorbed it's current cultural richness from Thailand (or Siam back then). There are things in Khmero-Thai culture that doesn't exist in India obviously. These things are a mark of Thai cultural inventions.
tbh, just my personal opinion, you're making it sound (intentionally or not) that Thailand and Cambodia are pretty much the same culturally, but i dont see it that way, i find them quite different, especially the countries as they are now, they were probably a lot similar back in the Angkor/Sukhothai era, if were talking about Isaan then yeah there will be a lot more similarities but Thailand as a whole, i just dont really see it, i find Cambodia a lot more traditional culturally here and the people have more interest in keeping their culture rich, people come to Cambodia and say "oh this feels like how Thailand would have been 30/50 years ago" but i dont see that being because the KR sent Cambodia back into the dark ages, but more because of Thailand losing its cultural richness,
but thats just a modern perspective as i wasnt around to see both countries in the 1800's, or even before, but id say around that time they got more influence from the french colonization, i guess a lot depends on how much you have seen and experienced of both countries that forms the bigger picture, as yes on paper they do share a lot of similarities, as they do with Laos and Burma also
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