MekongMouse wrote:I don't know why you're all ganging up on NT here. Anyone who thinks you can dock pay for talking on their phone is fucked. The level of control bar managers have over the women who work there is incredible and illegal fining is a prime example. I don't think that contradicts that some bargirls get rich, but are you all honestly saying that docking pay over disciplinary issues - a practice illegal in most developed countries - is okay?

As I have mentioned before the majority of hostess bar owners in Phnom Penh are Khmer or sometimes Vietnamese women. So the situation is not like some "Barang" exercising some unreasonable control over staff, it is Khmer disciplining Khmer staff in the way that is acceptable to them. I know a number of these Khmer female bar owners and all run a "tight ship" because if they don't the staff do not work, and this is the same for any "uneducated workforce" whether it be restaurant staff, labourers or factory workers.

One girl I have known for quite a few years worked in a bar, saved her money and now owns her own bar. She tells me its very difficult managing because if she is not "on top" of the girls all the time they just "play around" As she mentions she has given jobs to some of her friends so they can earn money and hoped they would "pull their weight" so to speak. She says " I go out of the bar and the girls change the playlist to put on their own music which annoys the customers". She also stated that sometimes the cashier will go outside and sit chatting to the girls that are sat outside the bar so there is no one tending customers. "I don't like to get angry" she says "but if I don't they don't work".

As she noted before she treated the girls like friends and was very lax but now she has to treat them as employees and discipline them if they don't perform. She of course is worried that if she is not enforcing "work practice" the bar will go "down the tubes" and she could be "on the street" and as she is past the age where she could go back to being a bar girl.

Docking pay and "fines" etc. were quite common in industry in first world countries and only became unacceptable relatively recently. And while now illegal in many places the practice still occurs in third world countries even those with legislation. eg

"One report tells how a Bulgarian factory which supplies European brands imposes fines on those who do not work the overtime required; how Chinese workers were fined RMB 30 (US$ 3.60) for refusing to work overtime; and how workers from three other Chinese factories were prevented from resigning during peak production periods by having several weeks' wages withheld by management."
http://www.labourbehindthelabel.org/sta ... king-hours
Needless to say this practice is even more common in small and unregulated businesses.

management of regional language schools use identical tactics.

NokTang wrote:The above quote of your remarks leads one to conclude your point is he is a "good pimp".

It might lead -you- to conclude that but here's the thing; your conclusions are based on your experiences in other bars, in other countries, owned by other bar owners, in other cultures. To be honest, the way you grind on with this (and I'm not saying you're right or wrong, just that you're being an ass) "one could conclude" that your endless protesting is more to hide from your own emotional issues on how you feel about you frequenting hostess bars - seriously, is it easier for you to sleep at night if you wear your 'White Knight' hat?

NokTang wrote:That is all.

Hardly, but if you believe this works for you in debates, go right ahead.

Kuroneko wrote:

MekongMouse wrote:I don't know why you're all ganging up on NT here. Anyone who thinks you can dock pay for talking on their phone is fucked. The level of control bar managers have over the women who work there is incredible and illegal fining is a prime example. I don't think that contradicts that some bargirls get rich, but are you all honestly saying that docking pay over disciplinary issues - a practice illegal in most developed countries - is okay?

As I have mentioned before the majority of hostess bar owners in Phnom Penh are Khmer or sometimes Vietnamese women. So the situation is not like some "Barang" exercising some unreasonable control over staff, it is Khmer disciplining Khmer staff in the way that is acceptable to them. I know a number of these Khmer female bar owners and all run a "tight ship" because if they don't the staff do not work, and this is the same for any "uneducated workforce" whether it be restaurant staff, labourers or factory workers.

I never mentioned ethnicity and don't care either. Abusive conditions are not okay. I also don't give a shit that this is how things are done in Cambodia. Whenever people talk about oppressive cultures just being "different" they fail to take into account the oppressed people who are also native. So why embrace the "culture" of the managerial class, but not the peasant class, whom one can reasonably assume would prefer less oppressive conditions? Convenience?

Maybe they would work more if they were paid more and not docked wages for every minor infraction. The real goal here is to make the worker feel scared, helpless, and without control over their own being or future. Workers are oppressed all over the world, but when they work in an illegal and unregulated industry in a 3rd world country, they are at the greatest risk. I don't know JS and I don't know how he treats his employees, so this isn't about him, but if you're doing things that are banned in most industries and labor laws, you should do some soul searching.

Kuroneko wrote: One girl I have known for quite a few years worked in a bar, saved her money and now owns her own bar. She tells me its very difficult managing because if she is not "on top" of the girls all the time they just "play around" As she mentions she has given jobs to some of her friends so they can earn money and hoped they would "pull their weight" so to speak. She says " I go out of the bar and the girls change the playlist to put on their own music which annoys the customers". She also stated that sometimes the cashier will go outside and sit chatting to the girls that are sat outside the bar so there is no one tending customers. "I don't like to get angry" she says "but if I don't they don't work".

It is a vicious cycle of abuse. She works for years in an abusive industry with abusive bosses who don't respect their workers and she gets to the top - of course she'll behave ruthlessly. Learned behavior.

Kuroneko wrote: As she noted before she treated the girls like friends and was very lax but now she has to treat them as employees and discipline them if they don't perform. She of course is worried that if she is not enforcing "work practice" the bar will go "down the tubes" and she could be "on the street" and as she is past the age where she could go back to being a bar girl.

There is a world of difference between being friends with your employees and abusing them.

Kuroneko wrote: Docking pay and "fines" etc. were quite common in industry in first world countries and only became unacceptable relatively recently. And while now illegal in many places the practice still occurs in third world countries even those with legislation. eg

"One report tells how a Bulgarian factory which supplies European brands imposes fines on those who do not work the overtime required; how Chinese workers were fined RMB 30 (US$ 3.60) for refusing to work overtime; and how workers from three other Chinese factories were prevented from resigning during peak production periods by having several weeks' wages withheld by management."
http://www.labourbehindthelabel.org/sta ... king-hours
Needless to say this practice is even more common in small and unregulated businesses.

A practice being common in the developed world does not make it okay. Like I said, shitty people will attempt to abuse and control others anywhere in the world. This is why we have laws to stop them. Bargirls live and work in a world with no protection though, so abusers take advantage of that.

I always thought the "long time barfine scam" was when the bg gets a call at 4am & she tells you that she has to go because - mama sick, brudda crash motocy, water buffalo die, sister forget her apt key etc etc etc.......... With virtual 0% unemployment in Central Thailand all the bars are having a tough time finding girls these days. The bgs now are older, fatter, & uglier than a few years ago. Salaries are up up up & there isn't a lot of docking going on these days. If an owner pulls that kinda crap the girls are off to the next place. Girls can live OK just on ladydrinks and salary now. Many bars have gone to Coyote dancers who don't work for the house and don't go with customers (usually). Thailand's economy has matured & the scene for punters is drying up and getting expensive. Even Pattaya is becoming more of a family destination every day. Sex tourists will soon be off to more desperately poor counties.

a classic case of a disgruntled client looking for love in all the wrong places.

why decry the marketing of an industry you are an admitted client of?

it is not all about you Mr Nok Tang.


just don't go there.

the hairsplitting morality on what is essentially a cut and dried commercial transaction smacks of hypocrisy.

better debate Talmud.
you may get somewhere with that.

or practice Law.

MekongMouse wrote:

Kuroneko wrote:

MekongMouse wrote:I don't know why you're all ganging up on NT here. Anyone who thinks you can dock pay for talking on their phone is fucked. The level of control bar managers have over the women who work there is incredible and illegal fining is a prime example. I don't think that contradicts that some bargirls get rich, but are you all honestly saying that docking pay over disciplinary issues - a practice illegal in most developed countries - is okay?

As I have mentioned before the majority of hostess bar owners in Phnom Penh are Khmer or sometimes Vietnamese women. So the situation is not like some "Barang" exercising some unreasonable control over staff, it is Khmer disciplining Khmer staff in the way that is acceptable to them. I know a number of these Khmer female bar owners and all run a "tight ship" because if they don't the staff do not work, and this is the same for any "uneducated workforce" whether it be restaurant staff, labourers or factory workers.

I never mentioned ethnicity and don't care either. Abusive conditions are not okay. I also don't give a shit that this is how things are done in Cambodia. Whenever people talk about oppressive cultures just being "different" they fail to take into account the oppressed people who are also native. So why embrace the "culture" of the managerial class, but not the peasant class, whom one can reasonably assume would prefer less oppressive conditions? Convenience?

Maybe they would work more if they were paid more and not docked wages for every minor infraction. The real goal here is to make the worker feel scared, helpless, and without control over their own being or future. Workers are oppressed all over the world, but when they work in an illegal and unregulated industry in a 3rd world country, they are at the greatest risk. I don't know JS and I don't know how he treats his employees, so this isn't about him, but if you're doing things that are banned in most industries and labor laws, you should do some soul searching.

Kuroneko wrote: One girl I have known for quite a few years worked in a bar, saved her money and now owns her own bar. She tells me its very difficult managing because if she is not "on top" of the girls all the time they just "play around" As she mentions she has given jobs to some of her friends so they can earn money and hoped they would "pull their weight" so to speak. She says " I go out of the bar and the girls change the playlist to put on their own music which annoys the customers". She also stated that sometimes the cashier will go outside and sit chatting to the girls that are sat outside the bar so there is no one tending customers. "I don't like to get angry" she says "but if I don't they don't work".

It is a vicious cycle of abuse. She works for years in an abusive industry with abusive bosses who don't respect their workers and she gets to the top - of course she'll behave ruthlessly. Learned behavior.

Kuroneko wrote: As she noted before she treated the girls like friends and was very lax but now she has to treat them as employees and discipline them if they don't perform. She of course is worried that if she is not enforcing "work practice" the bar will go "down the tubes" and she could be "on the street" and as she is past the age where she could go back to being a bar girl.

There is a world of difference between being friends with your employees and abusing them.

Kuroneko wrote: Docking pay and "fines" etc. were quite common in industry in first world countries and only became unacceptable relatively recently. And while now illegal in many places the practice still occurs in third world countries even those with legislation. eg

"One report tells how a Bulgarian factory which supplies European brands imposes fines on those who do not work the overtime required; how Chinese workers were fined RMB 30 (US$ 3.60) for refusing to work overtime; and how workers from three other Chinese factories were prevented from resigning during peak production periods by having several weeks' wages withheld by management."
http://www.labourbehindthelabel.org/sta ... king-hours
Needless to say this practice is even more common in small and unregulated businesses.

A practice being common in the developed world does not make it okay. Like I said, shitty people will attempt to abuse and control others anywhere in the world. This is why we have laws to stop them. Bargirls live and work in a world with no protection though, so abusers take advantage of that.

I think you will find that most girls working in hostess bars in Phnom Penh are not working under abusive conditions. There is a world of difference between laissez fair and tight management, and tight management and abuse. When I was in the military I had to on some occasions discipline my men for various infringements but I was never abusive and had the respect of my men. In my example the bar owner had to resort to tighter management because the girls were abusing the managers trust, and in no way was she abusing the girls. Go and talk to the girls and see for yourself whether or not the girls perceive themselves to be abused. I accept that there are some bars where the manageress's treat the girls unfairly and I could name a few, but many of the girls like their boss and the bar that they work at. There is also new legislation aimed at protecting entertainment workers, eg:

This new regulation, adopted by the Ministry of Labour and Vocational Training, addresses some of the many challenges that entertainment workers face, including poor occupational safety and health conditions, lack of information on preventing occupational accidents and illnesses, high levels of violence and sexual harassment, excessive working hours, low pay and forced alcohol consumption. In addition, the regulation also calls for the elimination of forced labour and addresses common rights violations in the sector, such as imposition of penalties, wage reductions and forced abortions.
http://ilo.org/global/about-the-ilo/new ... /index.htm

While some sectors of the industry have abusive practices notably the "lower end" brothels, some KTV places and some beer gardens, and this is what the above legislation is primarily targetting. Hostess bars have some of the better working conditions in the sector.

Look, it is pretty clear we have different definitions of abuse. The difference is that the overwhelming majority of the democratic world agrees with mine. You can try to dress up abuse all you want, but this is just one more example of why the prostitution industry needs to be legalized and regulated. Then we wouldn't have to just hope that every pimp, er, bar owner was an honest individual and argue morality... but you wouldn't want that, would you? That might put a dent in your friend's fee racket, huh?