Soi Dog wrote:

StroppyChops wrote:

General Chatter wrote:Did Steven the Roman soldier , give Jesus bad wine by mistake ...not tasting it first and therefore not knowing it was bad he offered it to JC in good faith....and since then has been thought of as a cunt ... waiters make the same mistake all the time.....

I'm sure you already know this, but the vinegar offered at crucifixions was a coup de gras, a mercy to hasten dying. I like your imagery though - you're a vivid storyteller.

I remember being taught as a kid the vinegar-in-lieu-of-water offering was another act of scorn heaped upon a dying man who requested a last drink, not an act of mercy. Not clear how your view of mercy comes into it, as they has just brutalized him with the crown of thorns and the nailing crucifixion (when tying with rope was standard practice). Seems the whole point was to drag his death and suffering out longer as a warning to others.

As part of Mosaic Law at the time criminals killed by crucifixion needed to be dead and taken down and buried by sunset - this is not outlined in the Bible, it's established by other historians (notably Josephus) from that time. The vinegar was given to cause the tongue to swell and make it more difficult to breath, thus hastening death. The criminals would welcome death by taking the vinegar when offered. So, you're right, not so much an act of mercy but more a coup de gras.

Edit: for clarity, being dead and dealt with before sunset is mentioned elsewhere in the Bible, particularly in Joshua, as part of Jewish custom but not unique to crucifixion. Other examples included death by hanging (by the neck) as a punishment.

"How can God have created this world with all it's evil?"
Regardless of if your religious or not, this is a somewhat misguided question.
If we accept the notion of free will, this will lead to some people making (from your perspective) selfish, wrong or bad decisions that have negative impact on others (usually you or your group).
You can counter this by arguing that since humanity has survived and is prosperous, we aren't exactly extinguishing ourself as a race so far, so the bad tendencies so far have been overshadowed by our tendency to do good. - Again on a humanity scale, certain individuals and groups have suffered greatly, and for them this is probably not something that lessens their specific suffering all that much.

"Things like bone cancer in children? What’s that about?"
If we assume evolution is at play, for each birth the dice are rolled, sometimes your dealt a bad hand and you expire early, sometimes you luck out and have success and/or a long life, in most cases we get an average life.
So it's more about luck, rather than any kind of evil plan aimed at paining you personally.

You can chose to include a religious aspect in your world view or not, but claiming that bad shit happening prevents a potential deity, seems somewhat flawed.

StroppyChops wrote:

potty wrote:why did god send a son - what was jesus mission ?

The Bible actually lists a number of reasons, but ultimately he came to give us personal access to God, which wasn't possible before that.

oh nooo...

so, god placed his son in deepest jew-land, to propagate himself (= the god they had been following for some thousands of years already), only to give *US* (non-jews) some "personal access"...?

..owww...

(jesus was a practising jew - from the first to his last day)

potty wrote:

StroppyChops wrote:

potty wrote:why did god send a son - what was jesus mission ?

The Bible actually lists a number of reasons, but ultimately he came to give us personal access to God, which wasn't possible before that.

oh nooo...

so, god placed his son in deepest jew-land, to propagate himself (= the god they had been following for some thousands of years already), only to give *US* (non-jews) some "personal access"...?

..owww...

(jesus was a practising jew - from the first to his last day)

Was there a point?

jaclu wrote: "Things like bone cancer in children? What’s that about?"
If we assume evolution is at play, for each birth the dice are rolled, sometimes your dealt a bad hand and you expire early, sometimes you luck out and have success and/or a long life, in most cases we get an average life.
So it's more about luck, rather than any kind of evil plan aimed at paining you personally.

How can one talk about assuming evolution is at play when discussing Christianity? Doesn't evolution fly in the face of Christian doctrine which teaches divine creation (and if they do accept evolution, are they really Christians)? I don't recall the Bible preaching "just hope for luck" and "roll of the dice", like life is a crap-shoot. It is a crap-shoot to me, but I am not a Christian.

jaclu wrote:You can chose to include a religious aspect in your world view or not, but claiming that bad shit happening prevents a potential deity, seems somewhat flawed.

This thread is about Christianity and Christian dogma...not about generic beliefs in a "higher power". The specific deity upheld by Christians is supposed to be kind and gentle and loving. Throwing some people under the bus and claiming overall effectiveness for the general population or "survival of the fittest" is not what that faith preaches.

Soi Dog wrote:How can one talk about assuming evolution is at play when discussing Christianity? Doesn't evolution fly in the face of Christian doctrine which teaches divine creation (and if they do accept evolution, are they really Christians)

For starters lets quote the Pope:
“The Big-Bang, that is placed today at the origin of the world, does not contradict the divine intervention but exacts it. The evolution in nature is not opposed to the notion of Creation, because evolution presupposes the creation of beings that evolve.”

I guess he doesn't qualify as Christian?

jaclu wrote:

Soi Dog wrote:How can one talk about assuming evolution is at play when discussing Christianity? Doesn't evolution fly in the face of Christian doctrine which teaches divine creation (and if they do accept evolution, are they really Christians)

For starters lets quote the Pope:
“The Big-Bang, that is placed today at the origin of the world, does not contradict the divine intervention but exacts it. The evolution in nature is not opposed to the notion of Creation, because evolution presupposes the creation of beings that evolve.”

I guess he doesn't qualify as Christian?

Specifically, he is a Catholic. I don't know what Christian denomination Stroppy Chops is part of. The freaking bible says God hand made the world in under a week. It's the first paragraph. Adam was said to have been made from clay, not descended from apes. Eve was made from Adam's rib. Nothing about evolution. The pope better read his Bible again. Is he now claiming parts of the OT are allegorical and not meant to be taken literally? Quite a departure from the usual dogma. Was there a great flood or wan't there. Did God talk to Abraham and Moses directly or didn't He? They got to make up their minds on what they actually believe.

I didn't intend to get into a religious argument with you, the point I am trying to make is that intellectual logic and Christianity does not have to be mutually exclusive.
If I remember right SC wanted this to be a thread about Christianity for the outsiders, not an arena where different interpretations of God battle it out.

Well then, no I am not curious. My soul is packed, my body is beginning to feel like a too tight shoe.
I'm ready to go wherever they send honest souls.

taabarang wrote:Well then, no I am not curious. My soul is packed, my body is beginning to feel like a too tight shoe.
I'm ready to go wherever they send honest souls.

Your just revert into a state of concentrated nutriments in the cycle of life.....the is no more than that....ps can I have your TV when you go...