orichá wrote: ↑Mon Sep 18, 2023 10:44 pm


It is amusing to read guys write things like,
"who wants to mess with that lifestyle for something you don't see happening if you're not studying it."

Yeah, that's right. People don't see what's happening. Which is another reason why we are already finished as a species. . . I wonder if someone who just lost their home to a brush fire or a flood in Greece or Canada this summer, and now in Libya, would agree with you -- that they didn't see it happening ?

We are on the way out. We will still be saying wind and solar "don't cut it" as we burn up. We are just stupid. End of story . . .

I agree with you, anyone who follows the news and isn't willfully ignorant, or deliberately obtuse can see the chickens are coming home to roost, and the people in the firing line of the crazy weather events can definitely see it.

My point was that for generations now scientists whose job is to study and monitor these things have seen it coming. They have been looking at the data and the early indicators and trying to tell the world what is happening. The problem is that the average person doesn't see what the scientists are seeing, and if they're shown the data most wouldn't be able to read and interpret it, or understand the eventual ramifications anyway.

Most people have been aware in a vague sort of way that we're wrecking the environment, but until quite recently we haven't seen unprecedented weather events playing out almost every week, and even then for a huge chunk of the population it's just a snippet on the news they happen to see in passing, something on the other side of the world that's easy to dismiss. Even local events like heat waves, droughts, ocean heat spots, and changing rain patterns barely register as an issue for someone who spends their day in a climate-controlled office, and then goes home to spend their evenings and weekends in their climate-controlled house watching reality tv shows.

Random Dude wrote: ↑Tue Sep 19, 2023 3:44 am

orichá wrote: ↑Mon Sep 18, 2023 10:44 pm


It is amusing to read guys write things like,
"who wants to mess with that lifestyle for something you don't see happening if you're not studying it."

Yeah, that's right. People don't see what's happening. Which is another reason why we are already finished as a species. . .

I agree with you, anyone who follows the news and isn't willfully ignorant, or deliberately obtuse can see the chickens are coming home to roost, and the people in the firing line of the crazy weather events can definitely see it.

My point was that for generations now scientists whose job is to study and monitor these things have seen it coming.

Most people have been aware in a vague sort of way that we're wrecking the environment.

Yes, I also agree with you, the attitude of people is to dismiss and forget about the reality and stick with what makes them most complacent. Sleepy dreaming and buying more expensive autos is good for the economy, too.

As to scientists being aware, and ordinary people not -- yes, that is also true. Climate-change reporting was already going strong in the early 80s, when I recall that David Suzuki -- a Canadian scientist -- wrote a column on science affairs in the Globe and Mail newspaper. Way back then, he used to decry forest-cutting and he highlighted studies about global warming -- and this was in the early 1980s! His column was dropped from the newspaper because the conservative owners were unhappy that he was scaring people and thus discouraging economic "progress".

So, that example illustrates the fact that the chase for "economic prosperity" will continue to over-rule the common sense better wisdom of scientific evidence, which is telling us to stop burning fuel.

And that is why we are not embracing alternative energy sources, which exist in abundance.

Ghostwriter wrote: ↑Tue Sep 19, 2023 1:26 am

orichá wrote: ↑Mon Sep 18, 2023 10:44 pm And, for an example about the lack of imagination is the poster in France who needs and prefers his combustion engines: he has obviously never run about on fast electric motorbike. Why do people have to experience things before they accept that they are already real?

I'll switch from an energy source to another for my vehicle when the timing is right for me, which isn't right now. Who cares anyway ?

Do note that i don't mix the energy subject with climate subjects, that's another separate thing, debate, subject, whatever.

People who support the fossil fuel agenda often say things like, "note that I don't mix the energy subject with climate subjects, that's another separate thing, debate, subject, whatever..." That illogical and terrifying sort of platitude will definitely make Exxon and BP and Saudi Aramco feel even more smug as they pull the wool over our eyes with their fakey green advertising campaigns.

Yes, and of course, Norway also takes care not to "mix-up" the big "difference between" talking climate and energy consumption: domestically, they are going green faster than almost any other nation on Earth with the exception of Iceland; but on the export front, they are selling fossil fuels hand-over-fist as fast as they can.

The energy of the sun and ocean tides is virtually infinite. However, the popularly acceptable and "reasonable" narratives of what is "possible" are propagated by the currently dominant behavior-controlling patterns of economy, which can be defined by this simple equation: "normal consumer behavior" multiplied by "available technology" = "what we 'can' do now".

I think what really needs to be publicized is a comparison of the environmental impacts and consequences of evolving alternative energy solutions -- like hydrogen fuel, big batteries and electric motors, solar power, wind power, tidal power, geothermal power, etc. -- measured against the impacts of our present levels of fossil fuel energy consumption. The figures would enlighten the populace and definitely incentivize the push for alternative energy solutions. However, the current owners of power are mostly unimaginative wimps like Warren Buffet et al who continues to invest in new oil developments as a means to please his spoiled and greedy Princeton rich kid A and B shareholders. The richest 1% continue to present one of the biggest obstacles to real progress.

Technology is advancing rapidly. We cannot predict exactly when we will discover a cost-energy efficient way to produce pure hydrogen fuel and engines that can use it easily. But we will.

Battery technology is already advancing very quickly and so is superfast charging. We will also find ways to desalinate sea-water that is cost efficient. It is only a matter of creating incentives to hasten creative energy progress that will make sure gas and oil die out fast.

Although I have no respect or faith in politicians anywhere on Earth -- as they are all owned by the likes of Exxon, BP, Shell and Saudi Aramco -- perhaps they may be forced to legislate against fossil fuel consumption in more effective ways. . . . The world may be burning down too fast by the time they get around to it, but at least that too-late Pyrrhic victory will add a sort of ironic "I-told-you-so" hue to the rouge and rust color of the flames consuming everything all around us.

As I believe, anything is possible. And even if we kill the life in the oceans with heat and the same heat also causes the life-sustaining global circulation patterns of the oceans to fail -- resulting in a global conflagration of forest fires that rapidly consume all the trees in northern Canada and Siberia -- I am sure a handful of human beings will survive to rebuild a new future on top of the wasteland we are presently building with unmanaged rapid material waste -- er, I mean, "progress".

Fossil fuels will fossilize all of us soon enough, lol.

stevenjb wrote: ↑Tue Sep 19, 2023 1:04 am >Electric cars too - differential, fluid, brake fluid, bearing and axle grease, transmission oil, various specialized oils. Eliminating or drastically reducing ICE use isn't going make the oil industries go away at all<

As to Electric cars; no differential (electric motors power each wheel separately), no brake fluid (electric brakes and steering), no bearing grease (sealed bearings), transmission (there is none)

Ehh, OK no power steering fluid in teslas. Still brake fluid, sealed bearings still contain grease, direct drive needs transmission fluid at each motor as gears and shafts cannot run dry

All ev conversions will still run transmissions and differentials too, etc

Interestingly, manufacturers that I trust (Japanese) seem to view hydrogen as the way of the future rather than ev. This I can get behind

grumpygit wrote: ↑Tue Sep 19, 2023 5:57 am There was talk of the Greek wild fires. Strangely non of that talk mentioned the 79 arrests for arson, some lighting fires on purpose some by neglect.

Not sure where you got that idea. If you google 'what started Greek bush fires' most of the results will be from well-known news sources saying exactly that - that a lot of the fires were caused by people, either arson or accident. There's even a Wikipedia page with the first paragraph talking about the arrests. They then go on to explain how that's not unusual for Greece (same as anywhere that has a fire season), fires are a given, almost guaranteed to happen.
But what is unusual is the climate conditions that make the fires much more difficult to control, much more likely to spread quickly, and that's what people are talking about.



The doom mongers have been predicting costal areas being underwater and the earth looking like a drunks pizza found charred in the oven the morning after the night before. These predictions have been going on for decades. Deadlines come and go and still London New York Los Angeles ect remain above water.

https://cei.org/blog/wrong-again-50-yea ... ictions/

Should anyone care to look at some of the predicted non events.

I flicked through some of your list. Yeah, a lot of the things they predicted didn't happen when they thought they would - especially the predictions made in the early 70s.
What you're missing (or ignoring?) is that some of those predictions are what we're watching play out now. For decades scientists have been identifying the problem and warning us of the end result, them getting the time frame wrong, or the exact sequence of events wrong doesn't mean that the problem doesn't exist, it's because humanity has never lived through a time of massive change over a very short time period, so scientists are having to learn about this very complex situation as it happens in a lot of cases.

At the end of the day though, to put it in a nutshell...

Scientists have been telling us for decades that what we're doing is likely to heat the planet, melt the glaciers and ice caps, and change the climate so that we can expect to see more severe, and more frequent extreme weather events.
And that's what is happening.