Cambodian PM Urges Not to Use Cluster Bombs in Ukraine

CEOCambodiaNews · Post by **CEOCambodiaNews** » Tue Aug 15, 2023 7:17 pm

Opinions
As Ukraine uses cluster munitions, a 50-year-old lesson it must remember
The US stopped bombing Cambodia half a century ago. But Cambodians are still dying from the ‘bombies’ that litter their land.
Jim Laurie
15 Aug 2023
[excerpt]

The Americans concentrated much of their firepower on relatively underpopulated areas of Cambodia and Laos, which were being used as staging areas for North Vietnamese forces.

No definitive accounting of those killed – military or civilian – is available but the Yale scholars put the civilian casualties at a minimum of 150,000 dead over eight years in Cambodia. In Laos, perhaps half that.

The US munitions, dropped often at night from 32,000 feet, accomplished three things. They delayed by perhaps two years the victories of the North Vietnamese and the Khmer Rouge. They drove many civilians to support the Communists. And most enduringly, the bombing has continued to kill people for the 50 years that have passed since the air assaults ended.

Two types of ordnance were most often used. The 750-pound M117 Iron bomb caused many of those craters I saw. Last used in Operation Desert Storm in Iraq in 1991, the M117 has been retired from use.

Arguably more deadly then and in the long term, were the CBU-58 cluster-type munitions that the US still stockpiles today.

The Lao and Khmer people called them “bombies”.

Then and now, a single warhead can contain 500 or more small bomblets. What the military calls “submunitions” average about six inches (15cm) long and weigh under four pounds (1.8kg). They burst from their warheads and fall in clusters over wide areas. The horrific post-war danger is that the bombies have a high dud rate. Up to 40 percent of the munitions fail to explode. It’s estimated somewhere between 9 and 27 million submunitions in Indochina remain unexploded today.

https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2023 ... -munitions

John Bingham · Post by **John Bingham** » Tue Aug 15, 2023 8:57 pm

The Americans concentrated much of their firepower on relatively underpopulated areas of Cambodia and Laos, which were being used as staging areas for North Vietnamese forces.

It's so disappointing to constantly hear this false narrative. The Operation Menu bombings being referred to were confined to certain border areas. The following Operation Freedom Deal in support of the Khmer Republic was much, much larger and targeted areas all over the country. Kep and Kampot and Kien Svay and a whole lot of other areas were carpet bombed. Not trying to blame one side or the other, just saying.

HaifongWangchuck · Post by **HaifongWangchuck** » Wed Aug 16, 2023 11:53 am

John Bingham wrote: ↑Tue Aug 15, 2023 8:57 pm
The Americans concentrated much of their firepower on relatively underpopulated areas of Cambodia and Laos, which were being used as staging areas for North Vietnamese forces.
It's so disappointing to constantly hear this false narrative. The Operation Menu bombings being referred to were confined to certain border areas. The following Operation Freedom Deal in support of the Khmer Republic was much, much larger and targeted areas all over the country. Kep and Kampot and Kien Svay and a whole lot of other areas were carpet bombed. Not trying to blame one side or the other, just saying.

Indeed, this is why the Khmer Rouge was also able to clear out Phnom Penh so easily within hours of conquering the city circa 17 April 1975, as the threat of a US bombing mission attacking Phnom Penh was not only credible, but easily and readily believable seeing as they previously did exactly that, heavily bombing civilian populations in Phnom Penh and Kandal with B-52s throughout August of 1973, killing possibly tens if not hundreds of thousands of Khmer people in the process.

The US' aerial terrorism against Cambodia is often ignored and rarely acknowledged, but this is ironically what led to the rise of the Khmer Rouge in the first place (preferable from the American POV, as the Khmer Rouge were reliably anti-Viet Cong hence why the US supported them tacitly via an attaché at the Bangkok Embassy beginning in 1975, and then openly and proudly lobbied for Democratic Kampuchea beginning after 1979 as petty revenge for the asskicking the US received in Vietnam).

When one realises the full scale of how pretty much every problem Cambodia has faced for the last 70 years stems from American subterfuge and involvement (whether it is the indiscriminate bombing or backing one coup after another), one truly learns to hate them for everything they done, not only to this country, but everywhere else a flag was ever waved by a "friendly regime" backed and financied entirely by the US Empire (as we now see in the Ukraine).

newkidontheblock · Post by **newkidontheblock** » Wed Aug 16, 2023 10:44 pm

HaifongWangchuck wrote:
John Bingham wrote: ↑Tue Aug 15, 2023 8:57 pm
The Americans concentrated much of their firepower on relatively underpopulated areas of Cambodia and Laos, which were being used as staging areas for North Vietnamese forces.
It's so disappointing to constantly hear this false narrative. The Operation Menu bombings being referred to were confined to certain border areas. The following Operation Freedom Deal in support of the Khmer Republic was much, much larger and targeted areas all over the country. Kep and Kampot and Kien Svay and a whole lot of other areas were carpet bombed. Not trying to blame one side or the other, just saying.
Indeed, this is why the Khmer Rouge was also able to clear out Phnom Penh so easily within hours of conquering the city circa 17 April 1975, as the threat of a US bombing mission attacking Phnom Penh was not only credible, but easily and readily believable seeing as they previously did exactly that, heavily bombing civilian populations in Phnom Penh and Kandal with B-52s throughout August of 1973, killing possibly tens if not hundreds of thousands of Khmer people in the process.

The US' aerial terrorism against Cambodia is often ignored and rarely acknowledged, but this is ironically what led to the rise of the Khmer Rouge in the first place (preferable from the American POV, as the Khmer Rouge were reliably anti-Viet Cong hence why the US supported them tacitly via an attaché at the Bangkok Embassy beginning in 1975, and then openly and proudly lobbied for Democratic Kampuchea beginning after 1979 as petty revenge for the asskicking the US received in Vietnam).

When one realises the full scale of how pretty much every problem Cambodia has faced for the last 70 years stems from American subterfuge and involvement (whether it is the indiscriminate bombing or backing one coup after another), one truly learns to hate them for everything they done, not only to this country, but everywhere else a flag was ever waved by a "friendly regime" backed and financied entirely by the US Empire (as we now see in the Ukraine).

Thank goodness you have no axe to grind against the US.

Please share with us your thoughts about the Western world in general.

If this all tongue in cheek, it’s because it is.

Military wise, cluster munitions are the ideal weapon for trench clearing. Artillery isn’t accurate enough to reliably a hit deep target a few meters wide. Cluster bombs also wipe out all cover and concealment in an area as well.

Ukraine faces a heavily fortified Russian line with multiple trenches, land mines almost every meter, dragons teeth, barbed wire, backed up with more trenches, artillery, etc. All far outnumbering the Ukrainians. Cluster bombs might save the lives of thousands, tens of thousands or more (maybe closer to hundred thousand) Ukrainian soldiers lives.

Is it better to save lives now and send in de-miners later? Or send those people to die now?

There are no good answers in war.

truffledog · Post by **truffledog** » Wed Aug 16, 2023 10:56 pm

Without PUTIN there would be no war.

HaifongWangchuck · Post by **HaifongWangchuck** » Wed Aug 16, 2023 11:32 pm

truffledog wrote: ↑Wed Aug 16, 2023 10:56 pm Without PUTIN there would be no war.

Seeing as literally every major Russian politico (including hopeless Juan Guaido wannabe Alexei Navalny) is opposed on principle to NATO's attempt to corner Russia and raise the rainbow flag over St Basil's Cathedral, so whether Putin, orthodox Marxist Zyuganov (who is the real Russian opposition leader) or neoliberal gadflies like Navalny, literally no one in the country endorses NATO expansionism, the same way the US almost started WWIII in 1961 to prevent a Soviet missile base in Cuba

newkidontheblock wrote: ↑Wed Aug 16, 2023 10:44 pm

Ukraine faces a heavily fortified Russian line with multiple trenches, land mines almost every meter, dragons teeth, barbed wire, backed up with more trenches, artillery, etc. All far outnumbering the Ukrainians. Cluster bombs might save the lives of thousands, tens of thousands or more (maybe closer to hundred thousand) Ukrainian soldiers lives.

So would stringing up Zelensky, Kuleba, Reznikov et. al. on a lamppost, yet strangely that is never proffered as an option despite rapidly becoming the most likely outcome, but nah, let's speak instead of using weapons intentionally designed to target civilian populations

newkidontheblock · Post by **newkidontheblock** » Thu Aug 17, 2023 1:33 am

HaifongWangchuck wrote:
truffledog wrote: ↑Wed Aug 16, 2023 10:56 pm Without PUTIN there would be no war.
Seeing as literally every major Russian politico (including hopeless Juan Guaido wannabe Alexei Navalny) is opposed on principle to NATO's attempt to corner Russia and raise the rainbow flag over St Basil's Cathedral, so whether Putin, orthodox Marxist Zyuganov (who is the real Russian opposition leader) or neoliberal gadflies like Navalny, literally no one in the country endorses NATO expansionism, the same way the US almost started WWIII in 1961 to prevent a Soviet missile base in Cuba

newkidontheblock wrote: ↑Wed Aug 16, 2023 10:44 pm

Ukraine faces a heavily fortified Russian line with multiple trenches, land mines almost every meter, dragons teeth, barbed wire, backed up with more trenches, artillery, etc. All far outnumbering the Ukrainians. Cluster bombs might save the lives of thousands, tens of thousands or more (maybe closer to hundred thousand) Ukrainian soldiers lives.

So would stringing up Zelensky, Kuleba, Reznikov et. al. on a lamppost, yet strangely that is never proffered as an option despite rapidly becoming the most likely outcome, but nah, let's speak instead of using weapons intentionally designed to target civilian populations

So how would stringing the Ukrainian leadership on a lamppost save Ukrainian soldiers’ lives?

Do you really believe the complete occupation of the Ukraine by Russia would make democracy and freedom safer in Europe?

And when has a western military used cluster bombs to deliberately wipe out civilians? Even Putin hasn’t used cluster bombs on shopping malls or hospitals to kill civilians.

Please share all your wisdom.

truffledog · Post by **truffledog** » Thu Aug 17, 2023 2:18 am

HaifongWangchuck wrote: ↑Wed Aug 16, 2023 11:32 pm
truffledog wrote: ↑Wed Aug 16, 2023 10:56 pm Without PUTIN there would be no war.
Seeing as literally every major Russian politico (including hopeless Juan Guaido wannabe Alexei Navalny) is opposed on principle to NATO's attempt to corner Russia and raise the rainbow flag over St Basil's Cathedral, so whether Putin, orthodox Marxist Zyuganov (who is the real Russian opposition leader) or neoliberal gadflies like Navalny, literally no one in the country endorses NATO expansionism, the same way the US almost started WWIII in 1961 to prevent a Soviet missile base in Cuba

Take Putin out and the war is over.

Cambodian PM Urges Not to Use Cluster Bombs in Ukraine

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