glass tank girls

This is the part of the forum where we discuss Cambodia's nightlife! While most bars, nightclubs, pubs, beer gardens, and hostess bars are in Phnom Penh, we discuss the Cambodian nightlife across all of Cambodia, including Siem Reap, Kampot, and Sihanoukville. The main nightlife areas in Phnom Penh are on Street 136, Street 130, Street 110 and Street 51, but there are other party spots that aren't girlie bars where expats, tourists, and locals drink until the sun comes up. Feel free to post specials and promotions that relate to nighttime fun!
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violet
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Re: glass tank girls

Post by violet »

Clutch Cargo wrote: Wed Mar 09, 2022 4:24 pm
violet wrote: Wed Mar 09, 2022 4:04 pm
Clutch Cargo wrote: Wed Mar 09, 2022 3:55 pm When this moderator first visited Asia a long time ago, he didn't think of girls in this scenario as 'prostitutes' or 'hookers' either. Those terms in the western context are very derogatory and the moderator considers them largely inappropriate in the Asian context. Clutch Cargo agrees and reflects on the vast cultural, social and economic differences. A case of 'taking your Western hat off' and 'putting your Asian one on' in this regard and comparing apples with oranges in his humble opinion.
Perhaps what needs to change is how western blokes look down on hookers and prostitutes in western countries, rather than considering Asian women in fish bowls etc as somehow being singularly above such derogatory terms?
Good point there violet. I must admit that when I wrote that I wasn't thinking the fishbowl scenario...rather, the bars and karaoke et al. Def I think fish bowls are more akin to a brothel in the west. And isn't it the case that a girl there pretty much can't say no to a man that picks her? Hence personally I find those scenarios unpalatable and demeaning for women. OTOH the Asian girly bar scenario is quite different I think.
I think the girly bar scene is the same thing. Sure, it’s tamer and more comfortable (emotionally/mentally) for patrons to indulge, but it’s the same thing.

I haven’t spent time thinking about this so my next thoughts may change, If you are talking garden bars (my brain may be farting - is that the term?), then I’d probably think of them as the Asian version of an escort - and at the end of the day an escort (of the type that sleeps with customers) is just a dressed up prostitute that is more palatable/ emotionally/mentally comfortable for people.

My comments hold no judgement of you or others. I’m just commenting.
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Re: glass tank girls

Post by ego bibere nimis »

violet wrote: Wed Mar 09, 2022 4:52 pm
Clutch Cargo wrote: Wed Mar 09, 2022 4:24 pm
violet wrote: Wed Mar 09, 2022 4:04 pm
Clutch Cargo wrote: Wed Mar 09, 2022 3:55 pm When this moderator first visited Asia a long time ago, he didn't think of girls in this scenario as 'prostitutes' or 'hookers' either. Those terms in the western context are very derogatory and the moderator considers them largely inappropriate in the Asian context. Clutch Cargo agrees and reflects on the vast cultural, social and economic differences. A case of 'taking your Western hat off' and 'putting your Asian one on' in this regard and comparing apples with oranges in his humble opinion.
Perhaps what needs to change is how western blokes look down on hookers and prostitutes in western countries, rather than considering Asian women in fish bowls etc as somehow being singularly above such derogatory terms?
Good point there violet. I must admit that when I wrote that I wasn't thinking the fishbowl scenario...rather, the bars and karaoke et al. Def I think fish bowls are more akin to a brothel in the west. And isn't it the case that a girl there pretty much can't say no to a man that picks her? Hence personally I find those scenarios unpalatable and demeaning for women. OTOH the Asian girly bar scenario is quite different I think.
I think the girly bar scene is the same thing. Sure, it’s tamer and more comfortable (emotionally/mentally) for patrons to indulge, but it’s the same thing.

I haven’t spent time thinking about this so my next thoughts may change, If you are talking garden bars (my brain may be farting - is that the term?), then I’d probably think of them as the Asian version of an escort - and at the end of the day an escort (of the type that sleeps with customers) is just a dressed up prostitute that is more palatable/ emotionally/mentally comfortable for people.

My comments hold no judgement of you or others. I’m just commenting.
Correct. The same way girls on 136 look down on girls working Wat Phnom. Same job. One has aircon, the other doesn't - but they are doing the same damn thing. Tell me I am wrong.
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Re: glass tank girls

Post by Clutch Cargo »

violet wrote: Wed Mar 09, 2022 4:52 pm
Clutch Cargo wrote: Wed Mar 09, 2022 4:24 pm
violet wrote: Wed Mar 09, 2022 4:04 pm
Clutch Cargo wrote: Wed Mar 09, 2022 3:55 pm When this moderator first visited Asia a long time ago, he didn't think of girls in this scenario as 'prostitutes' or 'hookers' either. Those terms in the western context are very derogatory and the moderator considers them largely inappropriate in the Asian context. Clutch Cargo agrees and reflects on the vast cultural, social and economic differences. A case of 'taking your Western hat off' and 'putting your Asian one on' in this regard and comparing apples with oranges in his humble opinion.
Perhaps what needs to change is how western blokes look down on hookers and prostitutes in western countries, rather than considering Asian women in fish bowls etc as somehow being singularly above such derogatory terms?
Good point there violet. I must admit that when I wrote that I wasn't thinking the fishbowl scenario...rather, the bars and karaoke et al. Def I think fish bowls are more akin to a brothel in the west. And isn't it the case that a girl there pretty much can't say no to a man that picks her? Hence personally I find those scenarios unpalatable and demeaning for women. OTOH the Asian girly bar scenario is quite different I think.
I think the girly bar scene is the same thing. Sure, it’s tamer and more comfortable (emotionally/mentally) for patrons to indulge, but it’s the same thing.

I haven’t spent time thinking about this so my next thoughts may change, If you are talking garden bars (my brain may be farting - is that the term?), then I’d probably think of them as the Asian version of an escort - and at the end of the day an escort (of the type that sleeps with customers) is just a dressed up prostitute that is more palatable/ emotionally/mentally comfortable for people.

My comments hold no judgement of you or others. I’m just commenting.
I think the difference is that a working girl in a girly bar can choose not to go with a guy. Furthermore, there are hostess bars which are happy to employ 'drink only' girls aka 'original' or 'no go customer'.. Quite a different setting then I think to brothels in the west, asian fish bowls and ladies on the corner of streets..
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Re: glass tank girls

Post by violet »

^ was just going to thumbs up with a comment but found I had a bit more to say than was suited to a rating.

I won’t go on but will just add that when I refer to prostitutes and hookers in the west I don’t limit that to those that are in n brothels. They come in a variety of forms. Am a little unclear why the terms hooker and prostitute are derogatory when talking about those in western brothels where customers can’t be refused. Why is the woman who is in a position of such a lack of power the subject of derision?

I take your point there probably no pimp involved in your average st 13whatever girly bar. I am just confused how you started with saying you view those in girly bars to be a different breed and not deserving of a derogatory term, but derogatory terms are okay for women who are actually in a less fortunate position (when viewed from the perspective of autonomy).

Edit to add that I do note your comment about a good point being made in my earlier post - there’s just an element being overlooked I think
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Re: glass tank girls

Post by atst »

You may find it's a more girlfriend experience in SEA rather than the wam bam thank you mame
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Re: glass tank girls

Post by Clutch Cargo »

atst wrote: Wed Mar 09, 2022 6:51 pm You may find it's a more girlfriend experience in SEA rather than the wam bam thank you mame
And even the potential for marriage and a way out for some.
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Re: glass tank girls

Post by Clutch Cargo »

violet wrote: Wed Mar 09, 2022 5:36 pm ^ was just going to thumbs up with a comment but found I had a bit more to say than was suited to a rating.

I won’t go on but will just add that when I refer to prostitutes and hookers in the west I don’t limit that to those that are in n brothels. They come in a variety of forms. Am a little unclear why the terms hooker and prostitute are derogatory when talking about those in western brothels where customers can’t be refused. Why is the woman who is in a position of such a lack of power the subject of derision?

I take your point there probably no pimp involved in your average st 13whatever girly bar. I am just confused how you started with saying you view those in girly bars to be a different breed and not deserving of a derogatory term, but derogatory terms are okay for women who are actually in a less fortunate position (when viewed from the perspective of autonomy).

Edit to add that I do note your comment about a good point being made in my earlier post - there’s just an element being overlooked I think
Fair enough. I don't know why the terms prostitutes and hookers in the west are derogatory. I guess it's considered not a noble or respectable profession. To me they have a negative connotation but as you said earlier, it probably shouldn't be derogatory. Yet, it is what it is.

As to Asian bar girls not deserving of that term, I daresay there are some (many?) that do fit that. But I see the situation/circumstances of 'pay for sex' scenarios and the reasons why girls engage in it in Asia as being quite different to that in the West. As I said before, on socio, economic and cultural grounds. On that general basis, I don't think they warrant being tagged with the same terms imo. To elaborate..

I know many instances of girls sent to work in the city by the parents to send money to support the family and end up in the bars. I've even heard of cases where the microfinance company are about to foreclose on the parent's house and the girls are constantly hassled for money...incredible pressure. Or others where an older sibling will literally 'sacrifice' themselves for the sake of putting a younger sibling though a good school to secure a good future. Would you want to label those girls as 'hookers'? Not saying that's not a possibility in the west but the odds of that are surely different in the context of developed vs developing country with no social welfare safety net.

The other point is that the notion of 'pay for sex' is more ingrained in Asian society and culture whether that be bars, karaokes, massage places, fishbowls and brothels. Not to mention the practice of having multiple wives or mistresses or a 'mia noi' (eg Thailand). Something that is not so familiar or common in the West.

Then there are some girls working in the bars hoping for a relationship or even marriage as a way out and to secure their future for them and their family. Again, would many brothel workers in the West be thinking that way?

Anyway, I won't give a dissertation and I respect other's point of view that in a strict sense 'pay for sex' means they are prostitutes, hookers and johns et al.

I personally don't think those Western terms or labels necessarily translate well in the Asian context for the reasons I've mentioned above. As I said, that's my view, I may be wrong and I don't expect everyone to agree with me.
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Re: glass tank girls

Post by Kuroneko »

Clutch Cargo wrote: Wed Mar 09, 2022 10:21 pm Fair enough. I don't know why the terms prostitutes and hookers in the west are derogatory. I guess it's considered not a noble or respectable profession. To me they have a negative connotation but as you said earlier, it probably shouldn't be derogatory. Yet, it is what it is.

As to Asian bar girls not deserving of that term, I daresay there are some (many?) that do fit that. But I see the situation/circumstances of 'pay for sex' scenarios and the reasons why girls engage in it in Asia as being quite different to that in the West. As I said before, on socio, economic and cultural grounds. On that general basis, I don't think they warrant being tagged with the same terms imo. To elaborate..

I know many instances of girls sent to work in the city by the parents to send money to support the family and end up in the bars. I've even heard of cases where the microfinance company are about to foreclose on the parent's house and the girls are constantly hassled for money...incredible pressure. Or others where an older sibling will literally 'sacrifice' themselves for the sake of putting a younger sibling though a good school to secure a good future. Would you want to label those girls as 'hookers'? Not saying that's not a possibility in the west but the odds of that are surely different in the context of developed vs developing country with no social welfare safety net.

The other point is that the notion of 'pay for sex' is more ingrained in Asian society and culture whether that be bars, karaokes, massage places, fishbowls and brothels. Not to mention the practice of having multiple wives or mistresses or a 'mia noi' (eg Thailand). Something that is not so familiar or common in the West.

Then there are some girls working in the bars hoping for a relationship or even marriage as a way out and to secure their future for them and their family. Again, would many brothel workers in the West be thinking that way?

Anyway, I won't give a dissertation and I respect other's point of view that in a strict sense 'pay for sex' means they are prostitutes, hookers and johns et al.

I personally don't think those Western terms or labels necessarily translate well in the Asian context for the reasons I've mentioned above. As I said, that's my view, I may be wrong and I don't expect everyone to agree with me.
In the "West" prostitution has a very bad connotation and connected with Christian values. Just look at how the Victorians dealt with it eg:
Under the name of the Great Social Evil our newspapers for years have alluded to an awful vice, too evidently of wide prevalence,’ wrote Francis Newman in 1869 (Newman, 1869: 3). The concept of the Great Social Evil envisaged a sin of daunting proportions spreading throughout the social order leaving chaos in its wake; in the nineteenth century no greater social problem was perceived by society than that of prostitution. (Fraser Joyce)

Many people focus on the definition of Prostitution as sex for money and ignore the social and cultural context in which the term is embedded. Or more succinctly they assume the "Western" socio cultural context is universal, which it isn't.

The meaning of prostitution in the West has a very negative social context as exemplified above,whereas in the East it has a totally different meaning and is an accepted part of the culture.

Many tourists and people visiting the "nightlife" are largely unaculturated and unconsciously attach the western cultural perspective to the activity. They feel uneasy at what they are doing and justify it by either making derogatory statements about the girls,such as Hookers, Whores etc. or saying they never pay for sex or the girl gives sex free of charge. They assume that people here will look down on them for engaging with sexworkers as is often the case in the west.
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Re: glass tank girls

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ego bibere nimis wrote: Wed Mar 09, 2022 5:01 pm
Correct. The same way girls on 136 look down on girls working Wat Phnom. Same job. One has aircon, the other doesn't - but they are doing the same damn thing. Tell me I am wrong.
Not always, and some steps may be skipped - but the way it often goes is that a girl's virginity is sold to some wealthy local. Then they might be sold to a brothel/ KTV etc. After a few years their debt is paid off. Then they might go to work in a hostess bar. They possibly get messed up on alcohol/ drugs etc or just plain get worn out. Then they can't get a job in any hostess bars, so they are freelancers walking the streets and could end up at Wat Phnom or similar places.
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Re: glass tank girls

Post by Pseudonomdeplume »

My heart is sad. I will never de-sensitize.
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