Khmer Creation Myths Wanted

Have questions or resources regarding Khmer Culture? This forum is all about the Kingdom of Cambodia's culture. Khmer language, Cambodian weddings, French influence, Cambodian architecture, Cambodian politics, Khmer customs, etc? This is the place. Living in Cambodia can cause you to experience a whole new level of culture shock, so feel free to talk about all things related to the Khmer people, and their traditions. And if you want something in Khmer script translated into English, you will probably find what you need.
User avatar
bossho
Aging Tweaker
Posts: 622
Joined: Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:03 pm
Reputation: 276
United States of America

Re: Khmer Creation Myths Wanted

Post by bossho »

Someone should use that Garuda in fig 1 @Ghostwriter as an avatar here.
Samana Johann
Expatriate
Posts: 112
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2017 7:38 pm
Reputation: 23
Cambodia

Re: Khmer Creation Myths Wanted

Post by Samana Johann »

bossho wrote: Wed Jun 30, 2021 5:25 pm Thank you Sir, this is exactly what is needed.
Maybe of use in addition to the hint there:

The national popular "creation" story, Jati-Khmer (Birth of Khmer) is a copy of the Hind-creation story, found on the temples of Angkor Wat (relatively young).

The secound oldest monarchy, after Japan, in the world, has been founded by, Queen Soma (សោមា or ព្រះនាងលីវ យី, Sublime lady Līva Yī, or Daughter of the Nāgas, នាងនាគ) and a Brahmanic ascetic (possible from Kamboja, the Brahmin n Kaundinya I (Koṇḍañña កោណ្្្្្្្្្ឌញ្ញ, known as Brah Thong. Less deeper investigations known.

About 12 years on 2100 year old.
User avatar
bossho
Aging Tweaker
Posts: 622
Joined: Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:03 pm
Reputation: 276
United States of America

Re: Khmer Creation Myths Wanted

Post by bossho »

@Samana Johann; Great help for the beginning of the Common Era part of this.
also, what is this 12 on 2100 stuff? About 12 years on 2100 year old.

Image


I'm still clueless about the Pre Funan Khmer people's creation stories.

Anyone?
Multipox
Expatriate
Posts: 430
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2018 9:20 pm
Reputation: 80
Andorra

Re: Khmer Creation Myths Wanted

Post by Multipox »

bossho wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 10:26 pm Anyone hear tell of a Kon Khmer creation myth? As in a BCE era, animistic, paleo people, story of creation? Got to be something out there.
....
What religions or epics are depicted on the Central Temple of Angkor ?
....
To get a thorough answer to these questions, you might have to consult the libraries of Chulalongkorn or Thammasat universities in Bkk.

Also Buddhists themselves maintain libraries with Western monks, like Wat Mahathat in Bkk and another big one in Chiang Mai whose name escapes me (watch out for dogs at this one).

People at Chiang Mai University would help you here.
When I need advice about life, I just check in here.
Samana Johann
Expatriate
Posts: 112
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2017 7:38 pm
Reputation: 23
Cambodia

Re: Khmer Creation Myths Wanted

Post by Samana Johann »

As for the common known, more mystical background, maybe good to start here:Reamker. More evident, as told, research about the Kambo-folk, one of the six great kingdoms 2600 years ago in India, expanding east in Ashoka times (Bokor (mountain empire), Sovanna Bhumi(realm of gold)).
(and not realistic to find something neutral in public Thai sources, Chinese, Indian, maybe)
Owen
Expatriate
Posts: 23
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:16 am
Reputation: 7
Mexico

Re: Khmer Creation Myths Wanted

Post by Owen »

Fascinating, thanks for posting the background info. When you see carvings of the characters from The Ramayana in different countries it makes you wonder about the history behind it and how it got incorporated into each country's national story like that.
Samana Johann
Expatriate
Posts: 112
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2017 7:38 pm
Reputation: 23
Cambodia

Re: Khmer Creation Myths Wanted

Post by Samana Johann »

As some might already have investigated, the founding king, husband of Soma, the Naga King, originated in Kamboja (todays Afghanistan). Sure huge sphere where a lot of mythics fit very well with more historical things.

Kamboja Desa: https://archive.org/stream/kambujadesa0 ... p_djvu.txt

The more historical anchor, at least in regard of people, is found under the name Kaundinya I (correct spelled: Koṇḍañña , same name, btw., as the Buddhas first Arahatdisciple, 400 years before)
For those who enjoy investigating the Land of Wonders.
User avatar
SternAAlbifrons
Expatriate
Posts: 5752
Joined: Sat Mar 23, 2019 11:31 am
Reputation: 3424
Location: Gilligan's Island
Pitcairn Island

Re: Khmer Creation Myths Wanted

Post by SternAAlbifrons »

Not quite, Creation - but as we have some scholars here...

Does anybody have any detailed knowledge of the mythical characters called, Kinnara (male form) or Kinnari (female).
Coming out of the Himalayas through Burma, the tradition branches down into India, thu SEA down to Java and Bali, and out to Thailand, Laos and Cambodia.

The are generally associated with the sensuous, the pleasurable, music, dancing and the finer arts.
Their physical form is mostly Human, partly Bird and sometimes with an element of the Horse.
They are depicted throughout their range in theatre, dance, painting and sculpture.

My particular quiery..
I have some bronze figurines - a Kinnari and her retinue of 3 tribal musicians (with burmese style instruments)
I am pretty sure i have pinged them as Burmese, late 19th century - but i can't be sure, even after looking at 10,000 catalogues of this kind of stuff.

Some of the Khmer, Thai and Indonesian styles look very similar. < dress, accessories, headwear etc, plus the general style.
Compounding this, they are very rarely depicted in bronze like mine, so i have to look at other art-forms for comparison.

(a bronze set, with musicians. same casting. after 2 years searching i think this set is totally unique.
Not fine detail bronze casting, quite crude in details (that's ok, that's a style) - but a rare and captivating level of life and movement in the figures)

'Any relevant expertise out there??
(please, thank you)
User avatar
CEOCambodiaNews
Expatriate
Posts: 62322
Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2014 5:13 am
Reputation: 4033
Location: CEO Newsroom in Phnom Penh, Cambodia
Contact:
Cambodia

Re: Khmer Creation Myths Wanted

Post by CEOCambodiaNews »

Big Daikon wrote: Wed Jun 30, 2021 4:57 pm Like this?
https://pjcoggan.wordpress.com/tag/khmer-origin-myth/

(This is one version of the Khmer foundation-legend; what they all have in common is the idea that the Khmer people spring from the union of a prince from India and a native naga princess).
The legend of the Indian prince who is the forefather of all Cambodians
The love story of prince Preah Thong and Naga princess Neang Neak is intrinsic to Cambodian culture, passed on to every child at a young age.
Ajay Kamalakaran
Nov 21, 2021 · 11:30 am

The legend of the Indian prince who is the forefather of all Cambodians
Image
Representational image. The story of Preah Thong and Neang Neak is performed often by the Royal Ballet of Cambodia. | David Van Der Veen/AFP

One of the most beautiful theatrical spectacles that a person can witness in Asia is the Preah Thong Boung Soung, a rendition of the story of Preah Thong and Neang Neak that is performed by the Royal Ballet of Cambodia. With elaborate costumes, gentle music and exquisite dance, the opera depicts the story that every single child in Cambodia is told at a very young age – the saga of an Indian prince and a serpent (Naga) woman who are the ancestors of all Khmer people.

Like the Indian epic Ramayana, there are several versions of the story of Preah Thong and Neang Neak. One of the most popular versions goes like this: Thousands of years ago, Cambodia was a small island called Kouk Thlouk, meaning the land of the Thlouk tree, a Cambodian species of Chrysobalanaceae. The island belonged to the Nagas (serpents) who lived in the ocean. One day, Naga princess Soma and her subjects transformed themselves into beautiful women and came to the island. The same night, an Indian prince named Kaundinya sailed with his followers to the island. The prince saw the Naga princess dancing in the moonlight and fell madly in love with her and asked her to marry him. She agreed under the condition that the Naga king, her father, approve of the marriage.

Since the Naga palace was in the depths of the ocean, Kaundinya had to ride there by carrying Soma’s tail. The king found the Indian prince to be a suitable match and agreed to let his daughter marry him. After their wedding, the Naga king expanded the island by reclaiming more land from the ocean. This territory was then ruled by the Kaundinya and Soma, who were given the Khmer names Preah Thong and Neang Neak respectively. The Cambodians, or Khmers, consider themselves the descendants of the pair.

“The description of the land as an ‘island’ is linked with the idea that all of the country was formerly underwater,” German scholar Rüdiger Gaudes wrote in a paper titled ‘Kaundinya, Preah Thong and the Nagi Soma: Some aspects of a Cambodian legend’. “Determining the geographical location of Koul Thlouk is impossible, particularly since it is said to be situated near the Dangrek Mountains, near the town of Siem Reap (where, indeed the classical metropolis of Angkor Thom was located), or far to the south of Angkor Borei – its supposed location evidently depending upon the place of origin of the respective narrator.”

Scholars widely agree that the notion that ancient Cambodia was an island was because of the widespread floods that the country has been witness to for thousands of years.

Another version of the story says Kaundinya waged a war with Soma, while another claims he killed the Naga king who refused to allow his daughter to marry a human. One thing that is common between these and almost all versions of the story is the part about the Indian prince carrying the tail of his future wife to the depths of the ocean. It is such a part of the Cambodian ethos that it has been incorporated into Cambodian wedding rituals: while entering the honeymoon room, a Cambodian groom is required to carry the end of the long train of the bride’s dress. This gesture and the story behind it indicate that the woman is the head of the family. Cambodians consider Neang Neak as their matriarch.
Elements Of Truth?

Like many epics and legends of Asia, the story of Preah Thong and Neang Neak may have an element of truth. Chinese historical texts mention the Kingdom of Funan, a loose network of Indianised states in the 3rd century CE. Funan is probably a Chinese variant of the Khmer word Vnum, which means mountain. The state’s ancient capital Vyadhapura did not survive the ravages of time.

In his book Account of Foreign Countries at the Time of Wu, 3rd century Chinese traveller Kai Tang documented the existence of Funan and Vyadhapura. He mentioned that the script of the kingdom was similar to what he called the Indian script. Kai Tang wrote about Kaundinya in his book, while talking about the origin of Funan. The Chinese name for the Indian prince was Hun Tian.

German historian and Indologist Hermann Kulke was the first to suggest that the Indian king was a Brahmin and that Kaundinya was actually the name of his gotra. In his book The Ocean of Churn: How the Indian Ocean Shaped Human History, Sanjeev Sanyal added that Kaundinya probably was from northern Andhra Pradesh or southern Odisha.

Tenth century Chinese encyclopaedia Tai Ping Lu Yuan says Kaundinya (Hun Tian) was a devotee of a Hindu god and dreamt of his god giving him a divine bow and asking him to take to sea in a vessel. The Chinese text that was translated by historian and academician Ramesh Chandra Majumdar said Kaundinya went to a temple of his god and found a bow the morning after the dream. “Then he embarked on a trading vessel, and the god changed the course of the wind in such a manner that he came to Funan,” the Chinese encyclopaedia said. “Liu Ye (Soma) came in a boat to plunder the vessel. Hun Tian raised his bow and shot an arrow, which pierced through the queen’s boat from one side to the other. The queen was overtaken by fear and submitted to him. Thereupon Hun Tian ruled over the country.”

The marriage of Kaundinya and Soma is mentioned in several ancient Chinese texts as well.

“These accounts undoubtedly reflect historical events from the 1st Century AD (that is two hundred or more years before Kang Tai’s visit) relating to the process of Indianisation: the influx of Indian religion, folklore, political and legal theories and other cultural elements brought by Indians into Southeast Asia in connection with social changes and the formation of states there,” Gaudes wrote.
Article: https://scroll.in/magazine/1010631/the- ... cambodians
Join the Cambodia Expats Online Telegram Channel: https://t.me/CambodiaExpatsOnline

Cambodia Expats Online: Bringing you breaking news from Cambodia before you read it anywhere else!

Have a story or an anonymous news tip for CEO? Need advertising? CONTACT US

Cambodia Expats Online is the most popular community in the country. JOIN TODAY

Follow CEO on social media:

Facebook
Twitter
YouTube
Instagram
User avatar
SternAAlbifrons
Expatriate
Posts: 5752
Joined: Sat Mar 23, 2019 11:31 am
Reputation: 3424
Location: Gilligan's Island
Pitcairn Island

Re: Khmer Creation Myths Wanted

Post by SternAAlbifrons »

Grrr.. Google has lost it's plot.
Does anybody else have trouble these days when trying to find stuff that was right at your fingertips 10 years ago?
anything non-commercial is drowned in 7 oceans of dead plastic bags these days

I am specifically trying to find some material about the legend of the Irrawaddy dolphin and the River tern.
I used to have a doc that was an in depth study of these kinds of 'Animist' myths/legends/histories.
Individually they are "foundational" to various degrees - but as they collect and build you realise they are most definitely cornerstones of Khmers fundamental beliefs about the origins of their world.

There are a number of slight variations of this story, but it is still passed on today.
I'll try to find the full version. For now..

According to an enduring Cambodian myth, the Irrawaddy dolphin was a fair maiden endowed with the body of a fish. Unfortunately, a forced attempt by her parents to make her marry a magical python saw her proudly casting herself into the Mekong river. Her suicide bid failed and instead, she was transformed – her enchanting contentment forever immortalised in the Irrawaddy dolphin’s trademark upturned mouth. Exuding timeless affability, it is hugely revered by the Khmer and Lao people.

One thing to note is the close ecological co-dependent relationship that exists between Irrawaddy dolphins and River Terns, so the legends are correct at that level, at least.
Poignantly - both species are flagged as being amongst the few closest to extinction in Cambodia right now. On the very edge and tottering.

What's the opposite of "Creation"? - of the world.
maybe the legends for-tell real history after all, theirs and ours entwined
... the portents are right before our eyes.
Post Reply Previous topicNext topic
  • Similar Topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: barang_TK and 197 guests