John Bingham wrote: ↑Thu Oct 07, 2021 11:28 am

mannanman wrote: ↑Thu Oct 07, 2021 10:40 am Those chicks must be hot as fuck wearing full length black clothing.

I’m often wondering if they are actually naked underneath. Or at least that’s what my brain thinks. No safety shorts!

Full length black clothing? Most just wear ordinary clothes and a head scarf.

Maybe I’m thinking of Ninjas.

I know a few Cham
..
They don't pin point anything profound , but just say they feel they are treated differently.

Username Taken wrote: ↑Thu Oct 07, 2021 5:54 am Agree with Stern, in part.
I'm familiar with the Cham quarter in Koh Kong that Stern mentions, but I don't think it's for 'protection'. 'Support' yes.

That is quite true, Ute - If we are talking about the modern context.
I apologise, i have to remember i came at it from a slightly different angle.

For me, Chams are not that sizeable minority down on the coast (or living and fishing on the riverside)
- an ancient surviving artefact from the 1st century Champa past.
I first learned about the arrival of Islam in SEA when researching for my first surfing and trading trip to Indo in 1974. (i was lucky to have a teacher living next door who had taught in Java for a number of years. He steered me into some wonderful directions)

I am a salty kind of bloke - so i was enthralled to read the 2 thousand year old history of trade and conflict and conversion that is the background to muslims ruling most of SEA and it's seas for.... eons now.
Stirring stuff - and i have seen it played out in real life on the coasts all thru SEA all my life.


Before European colonial conquests, wars between people of the same religion in Southeast Asia were commonplace. Mainland Theravada kingdoms and states were frequently at war with one another, as were maritime Sultanates and minor Muslim states. Overarching Theravada or Islamic culture did not create a common shared sociocultural identity that quelled political, economic, or ethnic disputes. Except in the border regions between Burmese states and Muslim Bengal and on the Malay Peninsula, wars between Buddhists and Muslims were infrequent, and when they did occur, they were seldom specifically about religion. The wars between Siam and northern Malay Muslim states were primarily territorial and political, and while religious identity was a very important aspect, one would not categorize these conflicts as religious wars.

So i have always seen these waterside Muslim communities as keeping close for a whole bunch of strategic reasons, including defence/protection.
I am sure that legacy, and the collective memory, still lives on to some degree.
But no, i don't believe they stick together because they feel threatened in Cambodia today.

PS
These are my Koh Kong Chams.
The muslims who founded trade routes between the Middle East and India to China at the time of Christ. Stopping off to create the great Champa empire here.
The decendents of the the Islamic traders Marco Pole did business with in Sumatra in 1291.
The pirate sultans who fought fiercely for the spice of the farthest East Indonesian islands.
The traders who converted, and won, most of SEA because of their trading and sea skills. (and other magic)
The people who still rule the inshore waters that is my territory today.


(That is the Cham Quarter of Koh Kong in the background.
Maybe 30 "piers" of back to back stilt houses over the water - up to 40 houses on a pier.
Before the sand mining, approx 600 longtails went out fishing from here every night)

SternAAlbifrons wrote: ↑Fri Oct 08, 2021 1:33 pm
The muslims who founded trade routes between the Middle East and India to China at the time of Christ. Stopping off to create the great Champa empire here.

Muhammad didn't die till 632, and Chams were mostly Hindu till the 11th century.

I am not aware of any persecution of Cham in Cambodia, but the same can not be said of the ethnic aboriginal people on the eastern border region, being the Hmong, Tai, Nhonh and the Monteguarde.

The Cham never felt overwhelmingly Muslim to me, even compared to Malaysia.
General sexism is more of an issue overall I think,, despite the apparent power of female. Maybe Tribalism, is more of an issue up north.
I once gave a backpack full of good tools for both men & women to some Cham boat people in Phnom Penh for, Reasons one day. The guy just grabbed it and walked a tightrope of wood to the riverside hut. As he opened it like Santa's sack, a rather..large? i guess? attractive khmer woman, a Cham, waved and smiled as I walked away.

Anyways, carry on. :::out.

John Bingham wrote: ↑Tue Oct 12, 2021 7:52 am

SternAAlbifrons wrote: ↑Fri Oct 08, 2021 1:33 pm
The muslims who founded trade routes between the Middle East and India to China at the time of Christ. Stopping off to create the great Champa empire here.

Muhammad didn't die till 632, and Chams were mostly Hindu till the 11th century.

Yes you are right John - i wrote that hurredly and realised afterwards i had misspoke and said "Muslim" instead of "Middle Eastern". (and Indians with strong ME connections)
Same people tho', and the history i was presenting for the many/majority of our readers who do not already know it, was basically correct - so i didn't bother to go back for a 2nd edit. 'Apologies.

Further reflecting on the "discrimination" issue re fish selling
Yes - ALL the licensed fish traders that the Cham fisher families sell to in Koh Kong, wholesale, are Khmer, mostly Chinese Khmer.
I don't know if that is a legal discrimination or historical artefact - but whatever, i suspect it is a decision of Power. It is certainly not because Cham's are lacking in commercial and entrepreneurial skills.

nb. Those Khmer and Chinese Khmer fish traders are still amongst the richest and most powerful lobby in town. They set the huge discrepancy between what the fishers are paid and what they are actually worth in the wider market.

Chinese/ Vietnamese traders and pirates controlled the whole coast for centuries. Khmer are more of an inland people.