Brody wrote: ↑Sat Oct 24, 2020 12:27 pm Jesus Christ........ @Freightdog

did this guy just take off with 0 degrees of flaps?

It’s not entirely easy to say for sure without a better video, and higher def.
It does look Like it, but there’s also what looks like leading edge devices extended (for those not of an aviation bent, this is a cue to put the kettle on, pet the cat or the missus, or the missus’cat, and maybe do the washing up)
If leading edge devices are extended, then it’s flap 1. If they ain’t, then it’s flaps 0, and a chat with the chief pilot; no tea or biscuits.

Given the origin, and the aircraft markings, I suspect debrief words like ‘inshallah’ and something about Akbar may have been de rigueur. I could tell you some tales, but am teetering between je suis Charlie, and keeping my head down in case someone assists me in that direction....

TaxKHpro wrote: ↑Sun Oct 25, 2020 5:12 am The narrative is the pilot experienced wake turbulence from the upwind aircraft [headwind to tailwind]. The company's SOP is to reduce angle of attack until speed is regained. Since the aircraft was after V1 [takeoff decision speed]. They reduced AOA until they had enough speed to takeoff.

I went off and had a look out of curiosity on another forum, and saw that explanation. The event was some time ago, mid 2016. The explanation sounds like utter bollox. The reality is likely far more simple.

Freightdog wrote: ↑Sun Oct 25, 2020 2:10 am

Brody wrote: ↑Sat Oct 24, 2020 12:27 pm Jesus Christ........ @Freightdog

did this guy just take off with 0 degrees of flaps?

It’s not entirely easy to say for sure without a better video, and higher def.
It does look Like it, but there’s also what looks like leading edge devices extended (for those not of an aviation bent, this is a cue to put the kettle on, pet the cat or the missus, or the missus’cat, and maybe do the washing up)
If leading edge devices are extended, then it’s flap 1. If they ain’t, then it’s flaps 0, and a chat with the chief pilot; no tea or biscuits.

Given the origin, and the aircraft markings, I suspect debrief words like ‘inshallah’ and something about Akbar may have been de rigueur. I could tell you some tales, but am teetering between je suis Charlie, and keeping my head down in case someone assists me in that direction....

There have been a number of accidents caused but forgetting to deploy flaps at take off. This guy was lucky he had enough runway.
Question@ freightdog... If they realised what was wrong when they lowered the nose and gained a bit more speed, why didn't they try to deploy the flaps? The deploy in a few seconds and wouldn't it of given them an immediate boost in lift?
When the eventually got off the ground the flap were still retracted.

Doc67 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 25, 2020 9:57 am There have been a number of accidents caused but forgetting to deploy flaps at take off. This guy was lucky he had enough runway.
Question@ freightdog... If they realised what was wrong when they lowered the nose and gained a bit more speed, why didn't they try to deploy the flaps? The deploy in a few seconds and wouldn't it of given them an immediate boost in lift?
When the eventually got off the ground the flap were still retracted.

Boring piloty and plane anorak type stuff Alert!
Viewer discretion advised.

(PS. I’m fairly certain it’s configured at Flap 1)

In most aircraft still flying commercially, and especially in the passenger world, there are systems in place to avoid errors such as not setting takeoff flaps. The checklists should ensure that you never get to that point. Procedures should ensure that there are no errors for the checklist to highlight.

Flaps not being set for takeoff results in a very annoying warning noise on the flightdeck, as soon as you move the thrust levers towards takeoff power. But any valid takeoff flap setting will stop it happening. I guarantee that even the most obtuse moronic fool would not want to listen to that noise for longer than a few seconds*.**

Flap-1 is a takeoff flap setting. For most operations, most companies will rarely use it, but I have on quite a few occasions. Flap-5 is the usual (ie most common) setting.
But the warning system must be working.
I’d be surprised if it happened, but wouldn’t discount that it could.

Trying to fly flap-5 speeds with only flap-1 set could be this embarrassing. But as long as any panic reaction is avoided, the simple expedient is to accelerate the extra bit to get airborne, and fill in some paperwork later.
Changing flap setting while moving would take longer than getting the extra speed, is fraught with even greater error.

Caveat- presence of mind, length of runway, avoidance of panic, luck bucket not empty are All useful.

It’s happened before, it’ll probably happen again. It’s happened to a couple of North American operators in the last couple of years.
The reasons could be many and varied-
-Aircraft heavier than expected (it would be a big error)
-Loading error
-wrong settings entered in the computer
-Some other system error


Is anyone still awake?


*I Have flown with a few of the latter.
**Silly me...one crew did just that. Not exactly ignored it, just focused on the wrong reasons... Helios!

Brody wrote: ↑Mon Oct 26, 2020 8:42 am

Freightdog wrote: ↑Sun Oct 25, 2020 4:15 pm (PS. I’m fairly certain it’s configured at Flap 1)

Interesting. You mentioned before that Flaps 1 only has the leading edge slats extended a bit and no flaps extension. I didn't know that. In the video you don't really get a good look at the leading edge so you're probably right.

Thanks @Freightdog

I'll second this ^^^^^

How many threads have their very own current professional as their technical advisor?

Now all we need is our very own expert virologist to sort out the Covid-19 threads...

Brody wrote: ↑Mon Oct 26, 2020 8:42 am

Freightdog wrote: ↑Sun Oct 25, 2020 4:15 pm (PS. I’m fairly certain it’s configured at Flap 1)

Interesting. You mentioned before that Flaps 1 only has the leading edge slats extended a bit and no flaps extension. I didn't know that. In the video you don't really get a good look at the leading edge so you're probably right.

Thanks @Freightdog

Not quite- I didn’t mean to give that impression. The trailing edge flaps move a little, but don’t droop. So what you get is an increase in wing area (don’t ask me for a number, as that’s real anorak stuff), and a small change in wing chord and camber. This is why it looks like no flaps from behind. Especially in a video watched on a cellphone.
Leading edge slats and flaps are extended, too.

Flap 1 configuration can be useful in some situations. I’ve used it in Marseille a few times in the summer heat. There’s a big difference between V1 (decision) and Vr (rotate). Very useful for that extra bit of payload. You do need a longish runway.

The Gulfstream that I used to fly a decade or so ago had a Flaps-0-slats extended configuration as one option. A particularly difficult FO did actually change flaps configuration once, and that resulted in all sorts of unpleasant language. (Summary executions not being possible)