With due respect to yourself and your great oil producing Texas, Nuke
I think you are spouting a whole lot of stranded assets.
Renewables are outpacing predictions every time.
You don't know how quickly the whole apple cart is flipping??? on so many different fronts?

You think you know what's going on?
- I don't. Last time i looked was last week, so that's out of date.

But don't fear Nuke, you Texans will be squeeze pumping away for a little while yet.
A hundred years of oil-bent big money politics has made dammed sure of that.

Ah c'mon, It goes with feed lot big horn steers and great music for dancin'...

Renewables are becoming cheaper than fossil fuels now, especially when you factor in how subsidised the fossil fuel industry is in the west... Also, considering that even in your good old US of A 90-95% of new energy supply is either solar or wind over recent years, not a figure which could be achieved without state level investment, I'd hazard a guess that you are way out of touch on the subject.

Aside from solar panels there are concentrated solar power plants which could be effective here too. Not aware of any plans for that though.

Not to mention floating solar panels which can sit on dam reservoirs, not only providing energy, but also not using land, sitting directly on a grid input, reduce evaporation from the reservoir, and can be rapidly installed as demand increases as they are modular. I have heard they are planning to do this at a couple of dams.

AzalKH wrote: ↑Sat Sep 19, 2020 12:00 pm Renewables are becoming cheaper than fossil fuels now, especially when you factor in how subsidised the fossil fuel industry is in the west... Also, considering that even in your good old US of A 90-95% of new energy supply is either solar or wind over recent years, not a figure which could be achieved without state level investment, I'd hazard a guess that you are way out of touch on the subject.

Aside from solar panels there are concentrated solar power plants which could be effective here too. Not aware of any plans for that though.

Not to mention floating solar panels which can sit on dam reservoirs, not only providing energy, but also not using land, sitting directly on a grid input, reduce evaporation from the reservoir, and can be rapidly installed as demand increases as they are modular. I have heard they are planning to do this at a couple of dams.

ur not considering what mineral an the abuse to the environment it takes to make those solar power banks and how they are obtained

did ya watch yet

Yes Richard, "nothing, under this sun, is perfect"

I do agree with some aspects of Mr Moore's commentary
- nothing is perfect under the sun, and some people do have overly rose-tinted glasses.
It is perfectly right, and good, that the issues around all power sources are fully recognised.
But that film is way off the mark and way out of date is so many ways.

Micheal Moore is a blinkered-eyed propagandist. Every one of his films is a masterwork of that art. No??
I saw that in 5 minutes, even when his films basically presented my general point of view.
I cringed in the knowledge of how open they left us liberals to claims of intellectual and ethical bankruptcy - not for the causes, but for the methods he used to push them.

And fossils, in total, cause far more havoc to the planet than renewables - without even taking global warming into consideration. (a recognised fact, as far as i can figure)
If you do agree with the overwhelming conclusion of science - that man made climate change is a very real threat - then there is no real argument. Fossils have got to go, soonish.

Science also agrees that renewables can do the job - quicker and cheaper than we thought. On the ground reality is proving that every day.

If you don't agree with science, and think you know better, or even just not yet convinced by the 17865 metric tonnes of scientific data available...
that's fine too.

This Wärtsilä power plant is a hybrid tech plant what means that in future it can be easily integrated with solar etc. and it has/can have energy storage built as part of it. As multiple sources of energy is integrated in one plant like this it helps hugely to optimise and maximise different system efficiencies so it can add renewable power to the grid at times when it's most efficient to do so which cuts emissions pretty big time compared having separate plants. As far as I know this is the plan and what they now built is only phase 1 and in phase 2 & 3 solar will be added.

AzalKH wrote: ↑Sat Sep 19, 2020 12:00 pm Renewables are becoming cheaper than fossil fuels now, especially when you factor in how subsidised the fossil fuel industry is in the west... Also, considering that even in your good old US of A 90-95% of new energy supply is either solar or wind over recent years, not a figure which could be achieved without state level investment, I'd hazard a guess that you are way out of touch on the subject.

Aside from solar panels there are concentrated solar power plants which could be effective here too. Not aware of any plans for that though.

Not to mention floating solar panels which can sit on dam reservoirs, not only providing energy, but also not using land, sitting directly on a grid input, reduce evaporation from the reservoir, and can be rapidly installed as demand increases as they are modular. I have heard they are planning to do this at a couple of dams.

Utter rubbish.

phuketrichard wrote: ↑Sat Sep 19, 2020 1:51 pm

AzalKH wrote: ↑Sat Sep 19, 2020 12:00 pm Renewables are becoming cheaper than fossil fuels now, especially when you factor in how subsidised the fossil fuel industry is in the west... Also, considering that even in your good old US of A 90-95% of new energy supply is either solar or wind over recent years, not a figure which could be achieved without state level investment, I'd hazard a guess that you are way out of touch on the subject.

Aside from solar panels there are concentrated solar power plants which could be effective here too. Not aware of any plans for that though.

Not to mention floating solar panels which can sit on dam reservoirs, not only providing energy, but also not using land, sitting directly on a grid input, reduce evaporation from the reservoir, and can be rapidly installed as demand increases as they are modular. I have heard they are planning to do this at a couple of dams.

ur not considering what mineral an the abuse to the environment it takes to make those solar power banks and how they are obtained

did ya watch yet

Well aware of the minerals issue, though Stern did a good job responding to that aspect. Glossing over the massive damage consistently inflicted by fossil fuels on a global scale isn't really an argument for continuing to maintain the status quo. .

Bare in mind that those minerals, as well as most of the material used in solar panel production, can be almost completely recovered and reused at the end of the panels life cycle. Which is more than can be said for most current energy production.

We don't have a perfect solution to our energy needs at the moment, but we should still endeavour to choose less damaging forms of production. Personally have been flooded by how much less fuel our hybrid is using than the previous cars we have had used - in the region of 3-4 times more efficient (based on highway use, so even higher in typical PP traffic) - over the lifetime of the batteries this far outweighs the environmental damage those batteries caused.


Thanks for the insight into the powerplant Rogerrabbit, sounds like a good direction.

AzalKH wrote: ↑Sun Sep 20, 2020 2:52 am

phuketrichard wrote: ↑Sat Sep 19, 2020 1:51 pm

AzalKH wrote: ↑Sat Sep 19, 2020 12:00 pm Renewables are becoming cheaper than fossil fuels now, especially when you factor in how subsidised the fossil fuel industry is in the west... Also, considering that even in your good old US of A 90-95% of new energy supply is either solar or wind over recent years, not a figure which could be achieved without state level investment, I'd hazard a guess that you are way out of touch on the subject.

Aside from solar panels there are concentrated solar power plants which could be effective here too. Not aware of any plans for that though.

Not to mention floating solar panels which can sit on dam reservoirs, not only providing energy, but also not using land, sitting directly on a grid input, reduce evaporation from the reservoir, and can be rapidly installed as demand increases as they are modular. I have heard they are planning to do this at a couple of dams.

ur not considering what mineral an the abuse to the environment it takes to make those solar power banks and how they are obtained

did ya watch yet

Well aware of the minerals issue, though Stern did a good job responding to that aspect. Glossing over the massive damage consistently inflicted by fossil fuels on a global scale isn't really an argument for continuing to maintain the status quo. .

Bare in mind that those minerals, as well as most of the material used in solar panel production, can be almost completely recovered and reused at the end of the panels life cycle. Which is more than can be said for most current energy production.

We don't have a perfect solution to our energy needs at the moment, but we should still endeavour to choose less damaging forms of production. Personally have been flooded by how much less fuel our hybrid is using than the previous cars we have had used - in the region of 3-4 times more efficient (based on highway use, so even higher in typical PP traffic) - over the lifetime of the batteries this far outweighs the environmental damage those batteries caused.


Thanks for the insight into the powerplant Rogerrabbit, sounds like a good direction.

So, to answer PucketRichard's question "did ya watch yet", clearly the answer is No.

I watched it last night and was surprised at how un-environmentally friendly solar and wind power really are. I should also have been surprised that big business have twisted things around and word-smithed things to sound like they're actually helping the environment and not their bank accounts.

To yourself and @SternAAlbifrons, I would say, forget any bias and preconceived opinions you have about Michael Moore, he only financed the documentary. The whole thing was written, produced and directed by Jeff Gibbs, a self-confessed tree-hugger from the sixties.

Today is Sunday, not a lot going on, try to find a spare 1 hr 40 mins to watch it with an open mind. (If you choose not to watch, for whatever reason, your replies will not be valid).

From Wikipedia: A conclusion of the film is that green energy cannot solve the problem of society's expanding resource depletion without reducing consumption, as all existing forms of energy generation require consumption of finite resources. The film argues that renewable energy sources, including biomass energy, wind power, and solar energy, are not as renewable as they are portrayed to be.

We need to reduce consumption or all energies, we also need to reduce the world's population drastically, as the current level is unsustainable.

To reduce the population, we could try a pandemic or two. Maybe more if necessary.

To reduce energy consumption, we could ground air-lines, and restrict air travel to essential travel only.
We could force people to stay home to reduce the number of vehicles on the road.
We could close restaurants to reduce vehicles and just have food delivery services.

We could be onto something here.

*********************************************************************

And, what has all this got to do with 'Cambodia struggles to keep the lights on'?
If the entire world's population adopted the simple life of rural Cambodians, then we might be able to save the planet.
Bring back the pony and cart.
Bring back cattle plowing the fields.
Bring back hand pumped ground water.
Bring back going to bed at dusk and waking up at day break.
And so on . . . .

With due respect Ute (and you know i luvya)

That ^^^ is the dumb-flockingest stupidest thing that has every been written in the Human language.