Refusal to grant hard title

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newkidontheblock
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Re: Refusal to grant hard title

Post by newkidontheblock »

It’s a yes, no, and neither is the answer.

Land was taken by the bank sometime after the Vietnamese troops came into Cambodia. Subsequently parts were resold to others. A friend took pity father in law and so bought the current land so the family would have someplace to live.

Of course there’s the cow path behind the house that the current village chief now wants to build out into a major road and wants all the property owners to contribute property and pay for all construction. All have caved in except the older sister in law who lives on the property. She’s read the Cambodian law. Nothing in it mentions forced taking of property as much as the government wants and having property owners pay for everything on top of that. The last time she donated land for the good of the village, the village chief took her chunk and sold it to his friends. Of course the current Sangkat chief is the old village chief.

Anyways, it’s been a logistical nightmare trying to help. Not worth it. If they end up losing the land they are living on, they can all live somewhere else.
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Bitte_Kein_Lexus
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Re: Refusal to grant hard title

Post by Bitte_Kein_Lexus »

I don't get it. There were no banks around in 1979 when the Vietnamese invaded, so it's not like Maybank or something just repossessed it. You're being fed bullshit either intentionally or not. The title couldn't be put as collateral anywhere. Most likely some big shot took it, or the parents weren't originally from there and didn't actually own it and just sort of squatted. Sounds more like an issue from post-KR than a strictly bank thing. I'm not sure when the first banks came around, but it was probably pretty well into the 80s if not later. For sure there must have been money lenders throughout that period, so maybe that's what they're alluding to.
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daeum_tnaot
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Re: Refusal to grant hard title

Post by daeum_tnaot »

newkidontheblock wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:49 am It’s a yes, no, and neither is the answer.

Land was taken by the bank sometime after the Vietnamese troops came into Cambodia. Subsequently parts were resold to others. A friend took pity father in law and so bought the current land so the family would have someplace to live.

Of course there’s the cow path behind the house that the current village chief now wants to build out into a major road and wants all the property owners to contribute property and pay for all construction. All have caved in except the older sister in law who lives on the property. She’s read the Cambodian law. Nothing in it mentions forced taking of property as much as the government wants and having property owners pay for everything on top of that. The last time she donated land for the good of the village, the village chief took her chunk and sold it to his friends. Of course the current Sangkat chief is the old village chief.

Anyways, it’s been a logistical nightmare trying to help. Not worth it. If they end up losing the land they are living on, they can all live somewhere else.
Agree with Bitte Kein Lexus, the part about the banks in the 80s seems strange. I didn't think there were normal banks at that time, nor were there normal property rights.

A relatively easy way to get to the bottom of this would be to ask them to send you a photo of their "soft title", and then ask someone with expertise to tell you what it really is. From my (recent) experience, there seems to be a some confusion about what a soft title actually is, and it may refer to at least two different types of documents.

My partner and I recently had a similar experience. We wanted to buy some land, but the village and commune chief refused to do the paperwork, and didn't provide a reason either. It seems the commune chief is just kind of a jerk.

Then we did a little more research and found out that the needed document for a property transfer is at the district level. All we need is for the village chief to produce a document that acknowledges the owner holds that land, and the transfer will be done at the district level. The village chief already agreed to do that. This would probably be approaching the level of a soft title.
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John Bingham
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Re: Refusal to grant hard title

Post by John Bingham »

daeum_tnaot wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 1:49 pm Agree with Bitte Kein Lexus, the part about the banks in the 80s seems strange. I didn't think there were normal banks at that time, nor were there normal property rights.
The Central Bank was reestablished in October 1979 but would have had a very limited role, likely in foreign trade. There was no money in circulation at that time, the Riel wasn't reintroduced till March 1980. So government employees were paid in rice, and people survived on barter. You are correct on property rights, they weren't brought in until around 1989 when the State of Cambodia was being formed as a free market economy. It would have been more likely that any land seized was after the Vietnamese left.
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AndyKK
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Re: Refusal to grant hard title

Post by AndyKK »

whatwat wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:23 pm Normally you find the top guy first and it goes simply.
whatwat you could be right about what you are saying, but not in all cases, like I have mentioned that pecking order in motion at times. But then again I have no experience in titles of such. Who would be the top guy to find in the process of applying and most importantly too aquirie that most important hard title.
When I have had to deal with authorities, it's the case of going in with a smile and coming back out with the smile still on one's face.
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newkidontheblock
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Re: Refusal to grant hard title

Post by newkidontheblock »

Thanks for all the speculations and suggestions. But it’s much easier just sending them money for beer from time to time then trying to save themselves.

If they want to use the land as an endless piggy bank to indulge in all sorts of frivolous purchases without a thought of paying it back, it’s up to them.

A few days ago missus dreamt she went back to the village. She found all the family land sold with only the houses remaining. All the family members then begged her for forgiveness. Then she woke up.
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Re: Refusal to grant hard title

Post by whatwat »

AndyKK wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 10:00 pm
whatwat wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:23 pm Normally you find the top guy first and it goes simply.
whatwat you could be right about what you are saying, but not in all cases, like I have mentioned that pecking order in motion at times. But then again I have no experience in titles of such. Who would be the top guy to find in the process of applying and most importantly too aquirie that most important hard title.
When I have had to deal with authorities, it's the case of going in with a smile and coming back out with the smile still on one's face.
I guess if you already know the top guy it’s pointless trying to search for him.

Everyone knows a “top cop”.
Don’t listen to Chinese whispers.
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Re: Refusal to grant hard title

Post by daeum_tnaot »

whatwat wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 10:14 am
AndyKK wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 10:00 pm
whatwat wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:23 pm Normally you find the top guy first and it goes simply.
whatwat you could be right about what you are saying, but not in all cases, like I have mentioned that pecking order in motion at times. But then again I have no experience in titles of such. Who would be the top guy to find in the process of applying and most importantly too aquirie that most important hard title.
When I have had to deal with authorities, it's the case of going in with a smile and coming back out with the smile still on one's face.
I guess if you already know the top guy it’s pointless trying to search for him.

Everyone knows a “top cop”.
For land titling I don't think it's actually necessary to know a high ranking person unless you encounter some unreasonable delays. The procedures are established, although they are not very well publicized, so it takes some digging around to figure out what's going on.

The problem for hard title is that normally they do a whole area at one time, so you just have to wait until they're ready to do your area. If you don't want to wait, it's possible to do it on demand, but then you are likely to encounter a process that could be quite expensive (as described by rubber baron previously).

The best thing is just to have the soft title all lined up and then when they are doing hard title in your area, you're all ready.
daeum_tnaot
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Re: Refusal to grant hard title

Post by daeum_tnaot »

newkidontheblock wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 12:29 am Thanks for all the speculations and suggestions. But it’s much easier just sending them money for beer from time to time then trying to save themselves.

If they want to use the land as an endless piggy bank to indulge in all sorts of frivolous purchases without a thought of paying it back, it’s up to them.

A few days ago missus dreamt she went back to the village. She found all the family land sold with only the houses remaining. All the family members then begged her for forgiveness. Then she woke up.
Just my personal perspective, but I still recommend you to help your wife and some responsible family members get on top of this. Because if there is some family crisis in the future, your wife will be really upset and it will end up affecting you as well.

Now may not be the time as you are not in Cambodia, but you could follow up when you're able to get back.

I actually don't understand the problem, as you seem concerned about them using the soft title as collateral for a loan. It would seem they can only do this once, and no more loans can be taken on the same soft title. But the way you describe it they are frequently taking loans against the same soft title- how is that possible?
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Re: Refusal to grant hard title

Post by daeum_tnaot »

John Bingham wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 2:50 pm
daeum_tnaot wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 1:49 pm Agree with Bitte Kein Lexus, the part about the banks in the 80s seems strange. I didn't think there were normal banks at that time, nor were there normal property rights.
The Central Bank was reestablished in October 1979 but would have had a very limited role, likely in foreign trade. There was no money in circulation at that time, the Riel wasn't reintroduced till March 1980. So government employees were paid in rice, and people survived on barter. You are correct on property rights, they weren't brought in until around 1989 when the State of Cambodia was being formed as a free market economy. It would have been more likely that any land seized was after the Vietnamese left.
Yes, sounds about right, the story of the hard title being with a bank doesn't make sense in the 1980s. Presumably there was no consumer credit available at that time.

A more plausible story would be that the title was used for credit before 1975, and then the bank was destroyed, title lost, burned down, etc. Which could also explain the commune chief's claim that the land was "abandoned"; i.e. the original owner can no longer claim it due to lost title.
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