Khmer Rouge Killing Intellectuals

Kammekor · Post by **Kammekor** » Thu Sep 03, 2020 8:36 pm

explorer wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 5:33 pm
SternAAlbifrons wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 5:14 pm Partly Explorer.
I would say the murder of the educated was approx 50% because they were indeed a threat.
But just as much, simply because they hated this class - the class that were the instruments of tyranny for a thousand years.

I am totally convinced of the this - the extermination of a whole class of people came not just from the cold calculations of the head, it was also plain old black-hearted hatred at a cellular level.
I agree. I think the same attitude that existed then, exists now. The rich believe they are superior to the poor, and they never plan to create a system where the poor people get fair go. Rich employers will always pay low salaries. Keep them poor so many of them can't even get a good education.

Your post simply ignores the fact billions and billions have been given to Cambodia to recover from the civil war.

SternAAlbifrons · Post by **SternAAlbifrons** » Thu Sep 03, 2020 9:04 pm

I think i know what you are saying/asking Xanadu ^^^
but i always go further back. It is my strong conviction that the Khmer mindset was taken off the logical/rational/cause-and-effect path eons ago.
A millenium of a rigid hierarchal social organisation which systematical stamped out all initiative, critical thinking and logic.

Nobody is born with logic. It took us a few millenium of gradual realisation, then 400 hundred years of seriously practicing a cause and effect, science based mindset for europeans to get so smart.
I reckon it will happen here too, and it aint going to take that long.

As for the KR's extinction of the intelligentsia.
Yes for sure that is a factor, still - but it will fade pretty quick.
But it is the shattering of the old divine god-king ruler, rigid vertical lines of command and compartmentalisation society that is opening the minds more than anything.

Khmer brains are no different physiologically from any one else, just the training has been twisted for a thousand years. The kids neurons, thank god, don't know about that.

Johno35 · Post by **Johno35** » Thu Sep 03, 2020 11:56 pm

SternAAlbifrons wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 3:50 pm Interesting theory Johnno ^^^ - but it falls over in the Cambodia/KR story.

Your first principal is not correct (IMO) - you overstate the intellectual standing of the KR principals.
They were not high level intellectuals and academics at all - they were mostly recently graduated (or failed) students and were definitely not at the top of their class at that.
I am not aware of one that became a real intellectual. Political studies, school teachers and technicians mostly.
You did not need to be one of the best and brightest to get an education in France at that time - it was basically about being on the right narrow path, usually because of some obscure family connections.

They were "educated" but that is about all you could say.

Right. That is what some people would like you to believe. Evidence indicates otherwise. We’re they mediocre intellectuals, sure. But the senior leaders were amongst the most educated Cambodians of their era. They directed the entire education system.

“The country was administrated by a handful of politically obsessive men and women, many of them former schoolteachers, who saw it as their long-term duty to oversee, punish, and transform the people under their control.” Voices from S21

“An intellectual is a person who engages in critical thinking, research, and reflection about the reality of society, and proposes solutions for the normative problems of society, and thus he or she gains authority as a public intellectual. Coming from the world of culture, either as a creator or as a mediator, the intellectual participates in politics, either to defend a concrete proposition or to denounce an injustice, usually by either rejecting or producing or extending an ideology, and by defending a system of values.[4] As a descriptive term of person, personality, and profession, the word intellectual identifies three traits:

Educated; erudition for developing theories;
Productive; creates cultural capital philosophy, literary criticism, and sociology, law, medicine, and science, etc.;[5] and Artistic; creates art in literature, music, painting, sculpture, etc. - Wikipedia

“The second group was a left wing of young Intellectuals who had studied in France and had become Communists.” King Sihanouk interview 1987

“In his graduation year he received the second highest examination scores in the country. He elects to pursue a career in mathematics teacher and along the way meets Son Sen, a man with a lifelong engagement in revolution and ideology.” The Elimination: a survivor of the Khmer Rouge confronts his past and the commandant of the killing fields.

In 1971 Saloth Sar was listed merely as one of ninety or so ‘patriotic Intellectuals’ rallying to the revolutionary cause.

“Why did so many Cambodian Intellectuals throw their lot with a movement that turned out to be so ghastly.” Pol Pot: Anatomy of a nightmare

I’ll leave you with C.V’s of some of the highest ranking and notable Khmer Rouge leaders.

“Thiounn Thioeunn, the Khmer Rouge Health Minister, and his wife, Amal’s, were the heirs to Cambodia’s two wealthiest aristocratic families. Thioeunn was a whimsical, otherworldly man whose life revolves around his work as a surgeon.”

Thiounn Thioeunn - Thioeunn was a former professor of surgery at the Phnom Penh medical school and was later dean.

Chan Youran - a lawyer and public administrator, is a graduate in law and holds a doctorate in public administration. Youran held positions in the Cambodian government prior to 1971 including: Chief of Bureau of Administrative and Social Affairs at the Council of Ministers; Under-director for human resources at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs; first secretary of the Cambodian Embassy in Paris. ositions within the KR include: Minister of Popular Education and Youth 1971-1975

Mak Ben - holds a doctorate in economics from the University of Paris. He is a graduate from the Institute of Enterprise Management and also the International Institute of Public Administration in Paris. He served as: Chargé d'Affaires for the embassy of the coalition government in Beijing

In Sopheap - an engineer, graduated from the Ecole Centrale in Paris. He left Paris in 1972 to go to the control zone of the Communist Party of Kampuchea. Later he served as: a counselor at the Beijing Embassy

Khieu Samphan - PHD in economics from the Sorbonne. Founder of the Khmer Students Association, and the Khmer Students Union. He held a law faculty at the University of Phnom Penh.

Nuon Chea - studied at the faculty of law at Thammasat University in Thailand.

Ieng Sary - Awarded a scholarship to study political science at the Sorbonne in Paris. His scholarship was withdrawn due to his political activities.

Ieng Thirith - studied English Literature majoring in Shakespeare at the Sorbonne in Paris. She became the first Cambodian woman to achieve a degree in English Literature. On returning to Cambodia she worked as a professor before opening and English language school. She became the Minister of Social affairs for the Khmer Rouge.

Khieu Ponarry - Pol Pots wife. She was the first female in Cambodian history to graduate from high school. She studied Khmer Linguistics in Paris. She taught French, history, geography, and civics at a new private college called Chamraon Vichea.

Son Sen - Studied in Paris. Taught at the Lycee Sisowath, and became director of the Pedagogical institute, part of the university of Phnom Penh. He was removed from his post at the institute after being accused of spreading ideas against the King but was appointed principal of a high school in Takeo.

Hi Nim - Completed a doctorate in public administration at the University of Phnom Penh in 1965. He was a prominent spokesperson for administrative and education reform. He established and taught in two lycees for poorer students. Many of their students were active in distributing leaflets during early stages of the war. Hu Nim became Minister of Information and Propaganda for the Khmer Rouge.

Hou Yuon - studied at Lycee Sisowath. Studied economics and law and earned a Doctorate from the University of Paris. His doctoral dissertation expressed basic themes that were later to become the cornerstone of economic policies adopted by democratic Kampuchea. His 1955 PHD thesis was entitled: The Cambodian Peasants and Their Prospects for modernization.” He was described as having “truly astounding physical and intellectual strength.” After returning from Paris he became a teacher of French at a new private high school, the Lycee Kambuboth which he helped establish.

Johno35 · Post by **Johno35** » Fri Sep 04, 2020 12:15 am

SternAAlbifrons wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 5:14 pm
explorer wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 4:46 pm
amatuertrader wrote: ↑Wed Sep 02, 2020 8:34 am The Khmer Rouge killing intellectuals sounds like such a bizarre thing to do, and they also tried to kill all teachers, educated people and even people who wore glasses.

Does it somehow help explain why the Khmer Rouge wanted to kill all the intellectuals?
They killed people who could become a threat to their power. Educated people are more likely to become a threat than uneducated poor people.
Partly Explorer.
I would say the murder of the educated was approx 50% because they were indeed a threat.
But just as much, simply because they hated this class - the class that were the instruments of tyranny for a thousand years.

I am totally convinced of the this - the extermination of a whole class of people came not just from the cold calculations of the head, it was also plain old black-hearted hatred at a cellular level.

Yes. Exactly.

The divide exists today. I have many Cambodian friends who will tell me of their dislike and distrust of people in Phnom Penh. One friend From Siem Reap tells me he doesn’t like to go to Phnom Penh because there are so many nice cars he gets too jealous of the rich people. He will say the government takes all the wealth in the country for themselves and leaves nothing for the poor people.
He says in Phnom Penh the people “don’t know each other, and they are corrupt.”

How easy it would be to convert him into a believer of the glories Socialism and equality. To make him a hater of exploitation, inequality, and oppression and then transfer it to living human beings.

Johno35 · Post by **Johno35** » Fri Sep 04, 2020 12:19 am

Johno35 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 04, 2020 12:15 am
SternAAlbifrons wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 5:14 pm
explorer wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 4:46 pm
amatuertrader wrote: ↑Wed Sep 02, 2020 8:34 am The Khmer Rouge killing intellectuals sounds like such a bizarre thing to do, and they also tried to kill all teachers, educated people and even people who wore glasses.

Does it somehow help explain why the Khmer Rouge wanted to kill all the intellectuals?
They killed people who could become a threat to their power. Educated people are more likely to become a threat than uneducated poor people.
Partly Explorer.
I would say the murder of the educated was approx 50% because they were indeed a threat.
But just as much, simply because they hated this class - the class that were the instruments of tyranny for a thousand years.

I am totally convinced of the this - the extermination of a whole class of people came not just from the cold calculations of the head, it was also plain old black-hearted hatred at a cellular level.
Yes. Exactly.

The divide exists today. I have many Cambodian friends who will tell me of their dislike and distrust of people in Phnom Penh. One friend From Siem Reap tells me he doesn’t like to go to Phnom Penh because there are so many nice cars he gets too jealous of the rich people. He will say the government takes all the wealth in the country for themselves and leaves nothing for the poor people.
He says in Phnom Penh the people “don’t know each other, and they are corrupt.”

How easy it would be to convert him into a believer of the glories Socialism and equality. To make him a hater of exploitation, inequality, and oppression and then transfer that lust for equality into hatred of the living human beings who lord over their compatriots. Luckily he’s very Buddhist and believes the rich have accumulated good Karma. Every personal or career setback he faces in life, whether just or unjust he’s starts moping about his bad Karma and sin and starts doing good deeds for the monks at the pagoda or volunteers his time at an NGO. A while back he got a very good job that paid fairly well. He called me and was ecstatic proclaiming that his Karma was good after all. In celebration of his good Karma he held a ceremony for the monks at his house. When he got laid off he called me saying it was his accumulated sins and bad karma that left him unemployed. Back to the pagoda he went to accumulate more merit.

explorer · Post by **explorer** » Fri Sep 04, 2020 5:46 am

xandreu wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 8:03 pm I've always been more fascinated with the scientific connection between the killing of the intellectuals and the general state of intellect within the current, modern population.

Is intelligence inherited? Are intellectually challenged people (for want of a better phrase) more likely to have intellectually challenged children? I'm not talking attitudes to intelligence. I mean natural intelligence. People born with it. How much of a role has the killing of the intellectuals played in the slow development of Cambodia ever since? And if it is somehow inherited, how many generations does it take to go from a society with limited intelligence to return to normal levels?

How much of Khmer culture can be put simply down to laziness and a lack of motivation and how much of it be explained by the fact they are still recovering from a society that was pretty much raped of its scholars, intellects and academic minds?

Without demeaning the horrific past of the country, it's a fascinating case study, scientifically.

If you look at Thailand, Laos, Indonesia and the Philippines, they have a lot in common. Some people blame the killing of intellectuals, but the other countries have had different histories, and still have intellectually challenged populations.

Focusing on self, on what I want, and how I feel, and in Asia the family as well, limits the intellect. It leads to things like throwing trash everywhere, and cutting in front of people on the road. Some people don't even think about what they could do for others, except for close friends who will do something for them in return.

A lot of teachers are also intellectually challenged. They can't teach what they don't know. Teachers also leave out important information during regular classes, so students have to pay for extra classes, and the teacher can make more money. So students learn, life is about getting money now, it is not about creating a society where everybody gets a fair go.

A lot of Cambodians are born with a genetic abnormality, called Thalassemia. They have abnormal red blood cells, which deliver less oxygen to the muscles and the brain. They are not physically able to work as hard as those without Thalassemia. They also have less oxygen delivered to the brain, and have less ability to learn. This is also the case in Thailand, Laos, Malaysia, and many other countries.

Big Daikon · Post by **Big Daikon** » Fri Sep 04, 2020 6:04 am

xandreu wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 8:03 pm
Is intelligence inherited?

Short answer: Yes.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4270739/

Interesting thread.

Kratom123 · Post by **Kratom123** » Fri Sep 04, 2020 7:37 am

amatuertrader wrote: ↑Wed Sep 02, 2020 8:34 am The Khmer Rouge killing intellectuals sounds like such a bizarre thing to do, and they also tried to kill all teachers, educated people and even people who wore glasses.

I got a sense of that sentiment when trying to get my nephews and nieces to go to school in a rural village in Thailand.

There was a real resistance from the local villagers because once a child had some education they no longer were interested in working on the farms. In fact they could show me examples of high school grads who had no job opportunities and would just lounge around all day and get fat and lazy.

It was more than the kids just thought they should have better employment but they actually got kinda snobby from hanging around more "wealthy" kids in high school.

Education totally jeopardized their way of agrarian life and a huge waste of time and money for their children, even if someone else was paying for it. Mandatory 3rd grade schooling was about all that had any value, taught how to add and subtract, how to read and write sorta.

I tried to get them beyond that but failed over and over for 20 years and won't ever try again.

I don't know what this thread is suppose to be about, but has anyone experienced similar difficulties in Cambodia?

Does it somehow help explain why the Khmer Rouge wanted to kill all the intellectuals?

My sister in law is about 26 she still goes to secondary school. There is no homework , there is no discipline at home these people are half wild

SternAAlbifrons · Post by **SternAAlbifrons** » Fri Sep 04, 2020 7:47 am

Johnno - you are right in that i probably understated the intellectual make-up of the KR leaders.
But personally, I still reckon you are overstating it.

Those quoted CV's of the KR leaders are very glossed up.

I don't really consider fiery young revolutionaries who go off to uni and come back into a variety of public sector jobs to be "intellectuals". Or the odd bloke who comes from an academic background.
By that definition any political activist who studies Che Guevara's handbook in the railway yard, or marxist theory at Berkeley, could be called an intellectual.
By and large, most of those on your list ^^^ could not be considered to come from Cambodia's authentic intellectual class.

There will alway be some input from genuine intellectuals. But here, they were not the ones most active in the eventual, fatal, Khmer rouge incarnation.
The revolution was shaped on political theory. The Central Committee members were political zealots - that is not the same thing as intellectualism.

(just my take)

newkidontheblock · Post by **newkidontheblock** » Fri Sep 04, 2020 10:10 am

Big Daikon wrote:
xandreu wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 8:03 pm
Is intelligence inherited?
Short answer: Yes.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4270739/

Interesting thread.

Modern phrenology couched in scientific mumble-jumbo.

Similar arguments were trendy up to World War 2.

The Nazis took it to the extreme and went about trying to eliminate those undesirables - or in this case genetic traits that don’t lead to high intelligence.

Humans naturally rise to what is expected of them. And fall to levels of what is expected of them as well.

Watch the movie ‘stand and deliver’. The math teacher places high expectations on kids expected to fail, and they succeed. Biopic of Jaime Escalante.

If students have low expectations of teachers, then few will rise to be spectacular.

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