Driving without honking

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talltuktuk
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Re: Driving without honking

Post by talltuktuk »

It’s a different culture here. I look at the horn as a tool to change behavior, or at least perspective. Perhaps it’s effective, perhaps not. But status quo isn’t working. I know a lot of Khmer people who won’t use the horn for various reasons - it’s rude, it’s obnoxious, it causes loss of face for either party, etc. According to them, it’s not rude for another driver to pull out of an intersection full speed and cut them off nearly causing an accident, but it’s rude to honk at them for it.

I’ve driven all over this country on a motorbike and have lived in both SR and PP. The driving here is atrocious. I have upgraded my horn and use it a good deal and I have noticed it’s effectiveness. The Khmer way of driving is just to pull out in front of people, not look, cut people off, and definitely never wait for an opening. Every driver thinks they are the most important person on the road. I watch other drivers slam on their brakes to accommodate this behavior. The don’t honk, they don’t object, they just do whatever they have to to enable it and/or accommodate this dangerous and unsafe behavior. The bad drivers never experience objection to this behavior so they keep thinking it’s ok and keep doing it. They don’t think or care about the 18 motorbikes who have to also slam on their brakes because the car in front of them did the same to allow some inconsiderate jackass pull out into traffic and cut everyone off. Not only is this bad driving creating an even more dangerous situation, those who enable it by not objecting are doing the same. I use my horn quite a bit and - short of creating or getting into an accident - do not allow people to bully me in traffic. I use the horn to object to their dangerous behavior, make it clear that I am the subject of that behavior, and attempt to stand up for myself. If you do something stupid and enough people push back, eventually you’ll adjust your behavior, especially in a culture so obsessed with face. And while some people may disagree with my logic, I’ve noticed that of all the encounters that I have, most of them result in the offending driver being embarrassed or otherwise indicating that they understand they are in the wrong. I’d be stupid to think that I’m going to single-handedly change the driving culture of this or any country. But based on what I’ve seen, I feel that I’m making a very small difference, at least in protecting myself and changing a few perspectives along the way.
Cambodia: where money can buy you absolutely anything except intelligence.
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Spigzy
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Re: Driving without honking

Post by Spigzy »

Honk when you're angry, honk when you're just trying to let folks on a blind intersection that you're there, double honk in appreciation of some of the finer sights in town, honk when you need to wake up the parking guy to take your ticket. Just honk.

All of the face saving or rudeness angles are insignificant compared to the abysmal driving or riding standards here; honk to avoid injury & stay alive. No dead person ever said "I wish I'd honked, he might have heard me".
Meum est propositum in taberna mori,
ut sint Guinness proxima morientis ori.
tunc cantabunt letius angelorum chori:
"Sit Deus propitius huic potatori."
Bluenose
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Re: Driving without honking

Post by Bluenose »

talltuktuk wrote: Thu Apr 16, 2020 11:06 am It’s a different culture here. I look at the horn as a tool to change behavior, or at least perspective. Perhaps it’s effective, perhaps not. But status quo isn’t working. I know a lot of Khmer people who won’t use the horn for various reasons - it’s rude, it’s obnoxious, it causes loss of face for either party, etc. According to them, it’s not rude for another driver to pull out of an intersection full speed and cut them off nearly causing an accident, but it’s rude to honk at them for it.

I’ve driven all over this country on a motorbike and have lived in both SR and PP. The driving here is atrocious. I have upgraded my horn and use it a good deal and I have noticed it’s effectiveness. The Khmer way of driving is just to pull out in front of people, not look, cut people off, and definitely never wait for an opening. Every driver thinks they are the most important person on the road. I watch other drivers slam on their brakes to accommodate this behavior. The don’t honk, they don’t object, they just do whatever they have to to enable it and/or accommodate this dangerous and unsafe behavior. The bad drivers never experience objection to this behavior so they keep thinking it’s ok and keep doing it. They don’t think or care about the 18 motorbikes who have to also slam on their brakes because the car in front of them did the same to allow some inconsiderate jackass pull out into traffic and cut everyone off. Not only is this bad driving creating an even more dangerous situation, those who enable it by not objecting are doing the same. I use my horn quite a bit and - short of creating or getting into an accident - do not allow people to bully me in traffic. I use the horn to object to their dangerous behavior, make it clear that I am the subject of that behavior, and attempt to stand up for myself. If you do something stupid and enough people push back, eventually you’ll adjust your behavior, especially in a culture so obsessed with face. And while some people may disagree with my logic, I’ve noticed that of all the encounters that I have, most of them result in the offending driver being embarrassed or otherwise indicating that they understand they are in the wrong. I’d be stupid to think that I’m going to single-handedly change the driving culture of this or any country. But based on what I’ve seen, I feel that I’m making a very small difference, at least in protecting myself and changing a few perspectives along the way.
Basically you're applying your home country standards and norms to another country.
I love that people here let you merge in, change lanes, and generally drive at a speed that allows them to do so. I don't see any bullying in traffic here, in fact quite the opposite when compared with the aggressive, arrogant driving you see in the West. Of all the encounters that you have, whatever reaction you get is probably just them being polite and avoiding confrontation. They still probably think you're at fault for not being considerate and should learn to fit in with the way Khmers drive.
talltuktuk
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Re: Driving without honking

Post by talltuktuk »

Bluenose wrote: Thu Apr 16, 2020 12:30 pm
talltuktuk wrote: Thu Apr 16, 2020 11:06 am It’s a different culture here. I look at the horn as a tool to change behavior, or at least perspective. Perhaps it’s effective, perhaps not. But status quo isn’t working. I know a lot of Khmer people who won’t use the horn for various reasons - it’s rude, it’s obnoxious, it causes loss of face for either party, etc. According to them, it’s not rude for another driver to pull out of an intersection full speed and cut them off nearly causing an accident, but it’s rude to honk at them for it.

I’ve driven all over this country on a motorbike and have lived in both SR and PP. The driving here is atrocious. I have upgraded my horn and use it a good deal and I have noticed it’s effectiveness. The Khmer way of driving is just to pull out in front of people, not look, cut people off, and definitely never wait for an opening. Every driver thinks they are the most important person on the road. I watch other drivers slam on their brakes to accommodate this behavior. The don’t honk, they don’t object, they just do whatever they have to to enable it and/or accommodate this dangerous and unsafe behavior. The bad drivers never experience objection to this behavior so they keep thinking it’s ok and keep doing it. They don’t think or care about the 18 motorbikes who have to also slam on their brakes because the car in front of them did the same to allow some inconsiderate jackass pull out into traffic and cut everyone off. Not only is this bad driving creating an even more dangerous situation, those who enable it by not objecting are doing the same. I use my horn quite a bit and - short of creating or getting into an accident - do not allow people to bully me in traffic. I use the horn to object to their dangerous behavior, make it clear that I am the subject of that behavior, and attempt to stand up for myself. If you do something stupid and enough people push back, eventually you’ll adjust your behavior, especially in a culture so obsessed with face. And while some people may disagree with my logic, I’ve noticed that of all the encounters that I have, most of them result in the offending driver being embarrassed or otherwise indicating that they understand they are in the wrong. I’d be stupid to think that I’m going to single-handedly change the driving culture of this or any country. But based on what I’ve seen, I feel that I’m making a very small difference, at least in protecting myself and changing a few perspectives along the way.
Basically you're applying your home country standards and norms to another country.
I love that people here let you merge in, change lanes, and generally drive at a speed that allows them to do so. I don't see any bullying in traffic here, in fact quite the opposite when compared with the aggressive, arrogant driving you see in the West. Of all the encounters that you have, whatever reaction you get is probably just them being polite and avoiding confrontation. They still probably think you're at fault for not being considerate and should learn to fit in with the way Khmers drive.
Basically I’m applying common sense safety standards to my driving - it has nothing to do with my home country. They have stop signs and red lights and traffic laws here. The locals largely ignore them and put other people in dangerous situations by doing so. Are you saying that this dangerous behavior should just be accepted because it’s status quo? Complacency prohibits progress.

I do agree that people are much less aggressive and arrogant here. But saying that stupidity and flagrantly dangerous behavior should be enabled and accepted isn’t going to make things any better here.

And honestly I don’t care what they think about me. I care about about us both both staying upright, safe, and alive and do not care about face in these situations. I’m certainly not going to downgrade my intelligence to accommodate and nurture stupidity.

And as far as “fitting in with the way Khmers drive,” even the government has a problem with this. They have recently increased fines and ramped up enforcement to bring accident/death numbers down and make things safer. Granted the police are understaffed and often ineffective but they are trying.
Cambodia: where money can buy you absolutely anything except intelligence.
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Re: Driving without honking

Post by Electric Earth »

I have no idea how it is in Phnom Penh, and I'd assume driving is more obnoxious just due to it being a big city, but in Siem Reap, I find the driving quite pleasant. It's much more tame and less frustrating than in the West. Just don't drive like you're in the west. You aren't. Traffic flows differently here. Once you flow With it, rather than trying to be a mix of aggressive and defensive like people do in the west, it's nice and flows much more naturally. The one issue I do occasionally have is young women pulling out into traffic while there are clearly oncoming vehicles, and not even having the decency to get on the gas. I don't know why, but it's Always young women. They'll just pull out right in front of people and proceed to putt along slowly. That's a total dick move and I wish them ill. But that really pretty rare. Once every couple weeks or maybe less? I dealt with assholes doing asshole things once, or more, every Trip in the US. You get the rando driving a short distance on the wrong side, but they always hug the curb and they're always just going a very short distance. To me that makes more sense and has an overall better effect on traffic than if they were to stay in the other lane for 100yrds and then stop in the middle of the road, holding up traffic, waiting for a gap to cross. You just can't treat it like it's the west. Driving here is pretty great and so much more chill.
epidemiks wrote: Mon Oct 30, 2017 5:57 pm Revbombs and a loud pipe are far more effective than the horn here. Unfortunately not possible in an auto. One of the reasons I miss riding.
Ugh. One of Those people...*

Just teasing. I have no idea if you're not one of those people. It just made me think of Harley douches in the US. There, all of those asshats just make their bikes as loud as possible and just drive around revving the shit out of the engine because it "makes them cool" or something. So annoying, especially in town/late at night. Yet they get their panties in a bunch when they see some Honda Civic with a really loud "ricer" exhaust, as if it isn't the exact same thing. :facepalm:
Do you think the parents of baby boomers whined so much when the boomers started changing society? And yet the whiney ones like to call young people "snowflakes." Hmm...
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Re: Driving without honking

Post by Electric Earth »

Spigzy wrote: Thu Apr 16, 2020 12:00 pmHonk when you're angry, honk when you're just trying to let folks on a blind intersection that you're there, double honk in appreciation of some of the finer sights in town, honk when you need to wake up the parking guy to take your ticket. Just honk.
Well One of those is a reasonable reason to honk, and not just being annoying(and kinda rude). Safety is the reason horns exist. People doing what you do is why more places are, rightfully, imposing fines for excessive horn use.
talltuktuk wrote: Thu Apr 16, 2020 11:06 amI’ve driven all over this country on a motorbike and have lived in both SR and PP. The driving here is atrocious.
I live in Siem Reap and drive around all the time. The driving is completely fine. Either shit has changed a lot since you were here last, or you don't "get" the flow of traffic in Cambodia.
Do you think the parents of baby boomers whined so much when the boomers started changing society? And yet the whiney ones like to call young people "snowflakes." Hmm...
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Spigzy
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Re: Driving without honking

Post by Spigzy »

Siem Reap town centre is certainly far more cultured, slow paced and reasonable than Phnom Penh. Plus you’ve got nice wide open roads, huge visibility- it’s a pleasure to ride/drive around in comparison to PP.
Meum est propositum in taberna mori,
ut sint Guinness proxima morientis ori.
tunc cantabunt letius angelorum chori:
"Sit Deus propitius huic potatori."
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Re: Driving without honking

Post by pczz »

talltuktuk wrote: Thu Apr 16, 2020 1:15 pm
Bluenose wrote: Thu Apr 16, 2020 12:30 pm
talltuktuk wrote: Thu Apr 16, 2020 11:06 am It’s a different culture here. I look at the horn as a tool to change behavior, or at least perspective. Perhaps it’s effective, perhaps not. But status quo isn’t working. I know a lot of Khmer people who won’t use the horn for various reasons - it’s rude, it’s obnoxious, it causes loss of face for either party, etc. According to them, it’s not rude for another driver to pull out of an intersection full speed and cut them off nearly causing an accident, but it’s rude to honk at them for it.

I’ve driven all over this country on a motorbike and have lived in both SR and PP. The driving here is atrocious. I have upgraded my horn and use it a good deal and I have noticed it’s effectiveness. The Khmer way of driving is just to pull out in front of people, not look, cut people off, and definitely never wait for an opening. Every driver thinks they are the most important person on the road. I watch other drivers slam on their brakes to accommodate this behavior. The don’t honk, they don’t object, they just do whatever they have to to enable it and/or accommodate this dangerous and unsafe behavior. The bad drivers never experience objection to this behavior so they keep thinking it’s ok and keep doing it. They don’t think or care about the 18 motorbikes who have to also slam on their brakes because the car in front of them did the same to allow some inconsiderate jackass pull out into traffic and cut everyone off. Not only is this bad driving creating an even more dangerous situation, those who enable it by not objecting are doing the same. I use my horn quite a bit and - short of creating or getting into an accident - do not allow people to bully me in traffic. I use the horn to object to their dangerous behavior, make it clear that I am the subject of that behavior, and attempt to stand up for myself. If you do something stupid and enough people push back, eventually you’ll adjust your behavior, especially in a culture so obsessed with face. And while some people may disagree with my logic, I’ve noticed that of all the encounters that I have, most of them result in the offending driver being embarrassed or otherwise indicating that they understand they are in the wrong. I’d be stupid to think that I’m going to single-handedly change the driving culture of this or any country. But based on what I’ve seen, I feel that I’m making a very small difference, at least in protecting myself and changing a few perspectives along the way.
Basically you're applying your home country standards and norms to another country.
I love that people here let you merge in, change lanes, and generally drive at a speed that allows them to do so. I don't see any bullying in traffic here, in fact quite the opposite when compared with the aggressive, arrogant driving you see in the West. Of all the encounters that you have, whatever reaction you get is probably just them being polite and avoiding confrontation. They still probably think you're at fault for not being considerate and should learn to fit in with the way Khmers drive.
Basically I’m applying common sense safety standards to my driving - it has nothing to do with my home country. They have stop signs and red lights and traffic laws here. The locals largely ignore them and put other people in dangerous situations by doing so. Are you saying that this dangerous behavior should just be accepted because it’s status quo? Complacency prohibits progress.

I do agree that people are much less aggressive and arrogant here. But saying that stupidity and flagrantly dangerous behavior should be enabled and accepted isn’t going to make things any better here.

And honestly I don’t care what they think about me. I care about about us both both staying upright, safe, and alive and do not care about face in these situations. I’m certainly not going to downgrade my intelligence to accommodate and nurture stupidity.

And as far as “fitting in with the way Khmers drive,” even the government has a problem with this. They have recently increased fines and ramped up enforcement to bring accident/death numbers down and make things safer. Granted the police are understaffed and often ineffective but they are trying.
have you ever driven in France or italy? apart from the fact they generally obey traffic lights I dont see much difference except the traffic is faster and there are less motorbikes to get in the way
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