Vote GOP or America will end up with Pol Pot running the country

Yeah, that place out 'there'. Anything not really Cambodia related should go here.
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SternAAlbifrons
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Re: Vote GOP or America will end up with Pol Pot running the country

Post by SternAAlbifrons »

newkidontheblock wrote: Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:38 pm
Unfortunately it was bombing the wrong place.
A rather basic (and unforgivable) mistake one would have thought NewKid
Perhaps they should have studied geography..
newkidontheblock wrote: Wed Jan 23, 2019 5:35 pm What’s a geography student? Is that some kind of major? What kind of future job requires a geography major?
Not wanting to be rude, but I really don’t know.
When I went to University, there was no geography student.
List of jobs requiring Geography study - includes "Military Planner"
post363587.html#p363587
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Re: Vote GOP or America will end up with Pol Pot running the country

Post by Clutch Cargo »

newkidontheblock wrote: Sun Sep 15, 2019 9:27 pm So to recap, Cambodia already made a deal with communist China and North Vietnam to ship weapons to Sihanoukville and transport them to Vietnam.

In violation of neutrality.
From wikipedia:

"Cambodian neutrality had already been violated by South Vietnamese forces in pursuit of political-military factions opposed to the regime of Ngô Đình Diệm in the late 1950s and early 1960s.[3] In 1966, Prince Norodom Sihanouk, ruler of Cambodia, convinced of eventual communist victory in Southeast Asia and fearful for the future of his rule, had concluded an agreement with the People's Republic of China which allowed the establishment of permanent communist bases on Cambodian soil and the use of the Cambodian port of Sihanoukville for resupply.[4][5]

Although the U.S. command in Saigon and the politicians in Washington became increasingly aware of this arrangement during 1966–1967, they declined to overtly interfere due to the political ramifications of conducting military operations against a neutral country and the wishes of Sihanouk. Washington still had hopes of reopening a dialog with Sihanouk, and refrained from any actions that might alienate him further.[1]:83–8[10]

By 1968 the Americans were well aware of the scope and scale of the Cambodian logistical effort, but still remained reluctant to overtly violate Cambodia's neutrality since the U.S. still hoped to persuade Sihanouk to come on board against the communists. It was also conscious that any overt action might escalate the conflict into the international arena, possibly directly involving the Soviets and/or Chinese.[citation needed]"

The way I see it, you can't keep playing the 'neutrality' card and yet make deals with one of the warring parties without disaffecting the other..
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Re: Vote GOP or America will end up with Pol Pot running the country

Post by SternAAlbifrons »

^^ Clutch - Sihanouk was desperately try to deal with elephants fighting all around.
He did his damnedest to keep Cambodia out of the VN war as much as humanly possible.

I guess if you have the basic belief that US had a right to intervene in VN and conduct the war they did - then you can maybe make a case for all this.
But in most of the world's view - this was a crime.
- including the bombing of all of Indochina back into the stone age.

PS also Karma
The peasants, nor any other sector of society, did not revolt because they sat around listening to Radio Peking and having political-philosophical discussions in the evenings.
It was purely a visceral gut reaction to the mass murder and total destruction of their country by the bombing.

(that's wot I reckon anyway :assasin: :-D )
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Re: Vote GOP or America will end up with Pol Pot running the country

Post by John Bingham »

k*rm*geddon wrote: JB will be onto you.
k*rm*geddon wrote: Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:28 pm No, the KR would have remained as next to nothing at all had not North Vietnamese communist troops swept through Cambodia in 1970 (years before the bombing to which you refer) seizing vast tracts of Cambodia and handing the peasants within to their Khmer Rouge allies.
Then Sihanouk made the fatal decision to align with those very forces he had spent years warning his people against --North Vietnam, the Khmer Rouge, and China. His exhortations for a peasant uprising
against an alleged American Imperialism were broadcast to the peasantry over Radio Beijing which came in loud and clear whereas radio signals from Phnom Penh were scratchy.
Indoctrination and Fake News played key roles.
That, in my opinion, is a very concise break-down of the situation that developed. There are other factors I might get into when I sober up, such as Hanoi's absolute lack of any material support for the Kampuchean Communists prior to the ousting of Sihanouk. Cambodia cut off all aid and diplomatic relations with the US by 1966, then the army (FARK) really suffered afterwards because the Chinese/ Soviet/ French equipment wasn't so good. The PAVN had occupied large tracts of Cambodian territory along the border for years, and some wily businessman made vast fortunes supplying cement, rice, etc to these foreign forces. The Cu-Chi tunnels were built with the help of cement transported from commercial depots in Phnom Penh.
One of the first major signs of civil unrest was the Samlot uprising. One of the causes of this was the fact that traders were buying Cambodian rice at a much higher price than local market prices for sale to the Vietnamese communists along the border. This of course resulted in problems in the local people's sustenance and the general economy. So the government decided that they would commandeer the whole situation and force the farmers to sell at a reasonable price. It resulted in many assassinations of officials/ security forces and then some very strong reprisals. China didn't even give much material support to the Kampuchean Communists either until after Sihanouk's deposal in 1970. If you read early accounts of communist resistance forces they often mention that they had 15 guys, 2 knives, a panga and one rusty old gun or whatever. They faced FARK soldiers using the latest Chinese supplied Type 56 and SKS. A year or two later the republican government was getting attacked with PRC supplied weapons.
The Khmer Republic was not a perfect state but it was recognized as legitimate by many countries.
When insurgents moved into any area people would quickly flee. Apparently 70% of the population were taking refuge in cities by late 1974. So the areas bombed were generally just populated by enemy troops (and likely their families), along with the citizens that had been forced into collectives. The forward air controllers usually worked on information and requests for air support from FANK (Khmer Republican) sources. My point being that actually a majority, or at least a large proportion of the Cambodian population supported the bombing while it was happening. There was a massive attack on Phnom Penh in 1972 that would have easily taken the capital out if it wasn't for the B52s and F4s keeping the perimeter.
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Re: Vote GOP or America will end up with Pol Pot running the country

Post by SternAAlbifrons »

^^
Thanks JB. an interesting and obviously well informed viewpoint.
It would be great if we could continue this topic as an actual discussion/debate rather than start (yet-) another history war ourselves.
Personally when i come back to address some of John's statements i will try to do just that.
(I actually would prefer to learn and gain greater understanding - more than i want to win an argument based on a viewpoint i formed 50 years ago)

PS JB, just researching International recognition of Khmer Republic but not found anything hard yet. I can only find vague statements which say they received little or no recognition. Can you please help me here?
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Re: Vote GOP or America will end up with Pol Pot running the country

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SternAAlbifrons wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:48 am PS JB, just researching International recognition of Khmer Republic but not found anything hard yet. I can only find vague statements which say they received little or no recognition. Can you please help me here?
"Indonesia under Suharto immediately recognized Lon Nol's Khmer Republic which deeply hurt Sihanouk."

Extract from
Cambodia: Progress and Challenges Since 1991 Paperback – March 26, 2012
by Pou Sothirak, Geoff Wade, Mark Hong

https://www.amazon.com/Cambodia-Progres ... 814379824/
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Re: Vote GOP or America will end up with Pol Pot running the country

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U.S. to Support Pol Pot Regime For U.N. Seat
By Don OberdorferSeptember 16, 1980

The United States will support the seating of Pol Pot's "democratic Kampuchea" regime in the United Nations again this year despite its abhorrent record on human rights, Secretary of State Edmund S. Muskie announced yesterday.

Speaking to a news conference, Muskie said the U.S. decision -- the subject of speculation and controversy at home and abroad -- was made at the behest of Southeast Asian allies and after "careful diplomatic soundings" that Vietnam is unwilling to negotiate the withdrawal of its forces from Kampuchea.

A credentials challenge to "Democratic Kampuchea," which currently occupies the U.N. seat, is expected in the early days of the General Assembly session, which begins in New York today. The challenge will be mounted by Vietnam and the "People's Republic of Kampuchea", which is ruling most of Cambodia (Kampuchea) from Phnom Penh under Vietnamese sponsorship...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/ ... edirect=on
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Re: Vote GOP or America will end up with Pol Pot running the country

Post by SternAAlbifrons »

Ah, The Honourable Pak Suharto
- now there's is a fair minded kinda guy to evenhandedly judge a regimes legitimacy. :facepalm:

:)
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Re: Vote GOP or America will end up with Pol Pot running the country

Post by Anthony's Weiner »

SternAAlbifrons wrote: Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:37 pm
newkidontheblock wrote: Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:38 pm
Unfortunately it was bombing the wrong place.
A rather basic (and unforgivable) mistake one would have thought NewKid
Perhaps they should have studied geography..
newkidontheblock wrote: Wed Jan 23, 2019 5:35 pm What’s a geography student? Is that some kind of major? What kind of future job requires a geography major?
Not wanting to be rude, but I really don’t know.
When I went to University, there was no geography student.
List of jobs requiring Geography study - includes "Military Planner"
post363587.html#p363587
Actually there are 489 universities in the USA that offer degrees in Geography. https://www.bachelorsportal.com/study-o ... tates.html If one chooses to study abroad Oxford University and Cambridge University as well as 335 universities offer degrees in geography in the UK. the median salary for a holder of a Bachelors in Geography is $75,760. I strongly suspect that when you went to University there were geography students as geography has been studied in America for over 160 years

The Société de Géographie (French, "Geographical Society"), is the world's oldest geographical society. It was founded in 1821 as the first Geographic Society.
The Royal Geographical Society (with the Institute of British Geographers) is the UK's learned society and professional body for geography, founded in 1830 for the advancement of geographical sciences.
Established in 1851, the American Geographical Society is the oldest professional geographical organization in the United States.
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Re: Vote GOP or America will end up with Pol Pot running the country

Post by k*rm*geddon »

SternAAlbifrons wrote: Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:58 pm ... The peasants, nor any other sector of society, did not revolt because they sat around listening to Radio Peking and having political-philosophical discussions in the evenings.
It was purely a visceral gut reaction to the mass murder and total destruction of their country by the bombing ...
The (mid-1970) peasant revolt as inspired by Sihanouk's call to arms had zero to do with the bombing which to that point had been limited to sparsely-populated areas along the Cambodian side of the border with Vietnam.
It targeted the NV troop sanctuaries inside 'neutral' Cambodia.

To avoid Khmer casualties, that bombing was confined to those particular North Vietnamese base areas located far from Khmer habitation.
Tempting targets which might possibly have led to Khmer fatalities were passed over.
And anyway, the Vietnamese banned any Khmer from approaching within 2 kilometers of their bases.

The NV bases inside 'neutral' Cambodia are believed to have sheltered at least 40,000 troops in total and had the full works of barracks, hospitals, ammo dumps etc. etc.
They were concealed under thick triple-canopy growth along near-deserted stretches of the border: they weren't plunked down amidst a cluster of Khmer villages or adjacent to town marketplaces.

Apart from the handful of Khmer living within earshot of those bases, almost no-one in Cambodia was even aware of what was happening..
Yet you blare out that that period of bombing constituted the mass murder (of Khmer) and (the) total destruction of their country.

When the NV troops swept through after the 1970 coup and grabbed vast swathes of the Khmer countryside (long before Nixon's very brief US troop intervention against the border NV bases), those NV soldiers replayed Sihanouk's exhortations to the peasantry.
Nobody mentioned communism.
Nobody talked about Hanoi's ultimate designs on Cambodia.
It was all about alleged American involvement in the coup.

And many peasants were sucked in.
Those who weren't, were destined to be shanghaied in anyway.

My initial comment on this thread about "dumb-arse Khmer peasants" who fell for the fallacy of a Socialist Paradise had nothing to do with peasants who were deliberately misled by sly communist propaganda.

[Mod edit: This is an interesting discussion and thanks everyone for the contributions. Let's keep it civil going forward. Whether members agree or disagree with another, please be mindful to respect the other member's views and for sure, give an alternate view. Thanks.]
MY 99 CENT KINDLE: ... 1974 TRAVEL IN THAILAND, CAMBODIA AND SOUTH VIETNAM : http://www.amazon.co.uk/EXPLAINING-CAMB ... B00L0LC8TO
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