Logic 101
Logic 101
I bet you can't rationally explain this... on another thread I asked about what rights a father to a newborn baby in Cambodia has when the mother has decided to resist informing the father of just about everything related to the baby, for example, it's given name, who is listed on the birth certificate, what a father can do (or can't do) to insist on his parent status.
Today I went to Calmette Hospital to try to find the birth certificate of a baby born recently. I went there with a copy of the mother's Cambodia national ID, and copies of reports from the hospital from checkups during the pregnancy.
Upon thorough efforts to check with each and every maternity unit at Calmette (they have four), and from discussion with very kind staff there, I found that:
Upon admission, the only information asked by Calmette is:
1) Name
2) Age
3) Address
None of these three items are verified or confirmed by asking for a copy of their national ID (which has a unique identification number, a date of birth, and their registered name) or any other form of identification. In other words, a woman could go in and intentionally lie about each of those bits of information and never face consequence.
Think about it.
Referencing the above:
1) (The names used on the reports for the same woman's checkups used different names) She could use a nickname, which virtually everyone uses on Facebook, or even a name of a relative or friend, which could effectively grant mother status to an entirely different person!! Think of a situation where a mother or father are unable to have a child together, but instead agree to buy a child from a pregnant woman. Absolutely no problem.
2) She could give a fake address, just like a name. Nothing is verified or confirmed!
3) Age. Not date of birth? No month, day or year, just age!! WTF is with that? This is 2019!! Again, nothing done to verify age.
So not only does Calmette not verify any information given to them by a pregnant mother to be, but it also is derelict in NOT getting a copy of her Cambodian national ID, which I understand is required for all persons over 16 years of age.
Can anyone logically rationalize this? This is totally a fucked up system.
Today I went to Calmette Hospital to try to find the birth certificate of a baby born recently. I went there with a copy of the mother's Cambodia national ID, and copies of reports from the hospital from checkups during the pregnancy.
Upon thorough efforts to check with each and every maternity unit at Calmette (they have four), and from discussion with very kind staff there, I found that:
Upon admission, the only information asked by Calmette is:
1) Name
2) Age
3) Address
None of these three items are verified or confirmed by asking for a copy of their national ID (which has a unique identification number, a date of birth, and their registered name) or any other form of identification. In other words, a woman could go in and intentionally lie about each of those bits of information and never face consequence.
Think about it.
Referencing the above:
1) (The names used on the reports for the same woman's checkups used different names) She could use a nickname, which virtually everyone uses on Facebook, or even a name of a relative or friend, which could effectively grant mother status to an entirely different person!! Think of a situation where a mother or father are unable to have a child together, but instead agree to buy a child from a pregnant woman. Absolutely no problem.
2) She could give a fake address, just like a name. Nothing is verified or confirmed!
3) Age. Not date of birth? No month, day or year, just age!! WTF is with that? This is 2019!! Again, nothing done to verify age.
So not only does Calmette not verify any information given to them by a pregnant mother to be, but it also is derelict in NOT getting a copy of her Cambodian national ID, which I understand is required for all persons over 16 years of age.
Can anyone logically rationalize this? This is totally a fucked up system.
Re: Logic 101
Calmette does not issue birth certificates. They issue receipts you need to convert to birth certificate from Ministry of Interior via your local sangkat.
It's not a broken system. You went to the wrong place. The sangkat asks what you mention for the actual BC.
You are wasting your time searching for a BC like this. Find the family book from the village chief where she is registered and take it from there. She has her own family book she and your child is in or they are both in her mother's wherever their house is.
It's not a broken system. You went to the wrong place. The sangkat asks what you mention for the actual BC.
You are wasting your time searching for a BC like this. Find the family book from the village chief where she is registered and take it from there. She has her own family book she and your child is in or they are both in her mother's wherever their house is.
Re: Logic 101
Shit, I should have checked with you first. Funny though, that no one at the hospital said anything about not issuing a birth certificate. But we never even got that far because the name could not be found, even though I had the date of birth within 1 or 2 days of actual.fax wrote: ↑Tue Apr 02, 2019 5:12 pm Calmette does not issue birth certificates. They issue receipts you need to convert to birth certificate from Ministry of Interior via your local sangkat.
It's not a broken system. You went to the wrong place. The sangkat asks what you mention for the actual BC.
You are wasting your time searching for a BC like this. Find the family book from the village chief where she is registered and take it from there. She has her own family book she and your child is in or they are both in her mother's wherever their house is.
Last edited by Tarndog on Tue Apr 02, 2019 5:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Logic 101
Just wait until you step into the family book mess. Everyone must have a book or be in someone else's book. To be removed from someone's book you need their approval.
Removal is as bad as you can imagine. They literally cut out or through other means destroy your presence in the book then enter you into another one. I'm talking scissors and permanent markers.
There is of course only one family book, the most important piece of documentation in many Cambodian's lives, safely kept in the provincial police wooden hut prone to flooding. That's the broken system, haha.
This journey will drain you mentally and cost loads of resources and energy. Feel free to ask direct questions via PM.
Removal is as bad as you can imagine. They literally cut out or through other means destroy your presence in the book then enter you into another one. I'm talking scissors and permanent markers.
There is of course only one family book, the most important piece of documentation in many Cambodian's lives, safely kept in the provincial police wooden hut prone to flooding. That's the broken system, haha.
This journey will drain you mentally and cost loads of resources and energy. Feel free to ask direct questions via PM.
Re: Logic 101
Off subject, but this kind of reminds of one of our workers who quit in a rage after only getting paid for 28 days of work in February. I don't understand the lack of logic here but, oh well.
"1 month, 30 days, pay me 30 days!"
"Bong, month 2 only has 28 days!"
"Motherfucker, you cheat me I quit!"
"1 month, 30 days, pay me 30 days!"
"Bong, month 2 only has 28 days!"
"Motherfucker, you cheat me I quit!"
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Freightdog
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Re: Logic 101
Logic101 won’t work thinking from a western perspective. I’ve discovered that the hard way, over and over, and just when you think you start to understand, a curve ball comes your way to turn it upside down. We might think our way is best, but it doesn’t matter. The local Asian way trumps all as they may simply close ears until you say the right things.
A little anecdote-
An ex girlfriend was brought up in a completely different system. Birth certificates rarely originate at birth, but rather may occur some considerable time later, largely because the west demands one as proof of person.
She had a passport. The passport system required proof of age, name etc.
The controlling document is the graduation certificate from school.
The school issued an education certificate based on the information provided to them by the family. Including birth certificate, if it existed. But the teacher completes and signs the documents.
A diligent teacher might approve a class of thirty girls with certificates personalised to each student.
A lazy one would simply fill in one certificate, and photocopy it 30 times, requiring only the girl’s name. As happened in the ex’s case. Often using only a firstname or nickname.
Now you have one person with several conflicting documents, but the education certificate is the controlling one, despite being utterly fucked up, and issued some 15 years later.
Back to Cambodia; I had fairly low expectations of the ‘family book’, but it still managed to disappoint.
The original birth certificate was rejected for SWMBOs kids. Only a photocopy was acceptable, then certified. Ok. They managed the lass’s date of birth wrong, listed her as boy, and misspelled her name several times.
It largely doesn’t occur to the officials involved that it makes life difficult.
A little anecdote-
An ex girlfriend was brought up in a completely different system. Birth certificates rarely originate at birth, but rather may occur some considerable time later, largely because the west demands one as proof of person.
She had a passport. The passport system required proof of age, name etc.
The controlling document is the graduation certificate from school.
The school issued an education certificate based on the information provided to them by the family. Including birth certificate, if it existed. But the teacher completes and signs the documents.
A diligent teacher might approve a class of thirty girls with certificates personalised to each student.
A lazy one would simply fill in one certificate, and photocopy it 30 times, requiring only the girl’s name. As happened in the ex’s case. Often using only a firstname or nickname.
Now you have one person with several conflicting documents, but the education certificate is the controlling one, despite being utterly fucked up, and issued some 15 years later.
Back to Cambodia; I had fairly low expectations of the ‘family book’, but it still managed to disappoint.
The original birth certificate was rejected for SWMBOs kids. Only a photocopy was acceptable, then certified. Ok. They managed the lass’s date of birth wrong, listed her as boy, and misspelled her name several times.
It largely doesn’t occur to the officials involved that it makes life difficult.
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Phnom Poon
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Re: Logic 101
The hospital attempted to provide patient details to a complete stranger?
Hippocraty 101
Hippocraty 101
.
monstra mihi bona!
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newkidontheblock
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Re: Logic 101
This is part of the reason why fixers are need in the system. Because so much information is incorrect, conflicting, or just plain missing on a routine basis.
Not really an Asian way, just the way things are done in Cambodia.
The old Taiwanese way was the signature stamp. The stamp was legal proof of signature. If criminal stole your stamp, he could legally sign any document as you and it would be upheld in court.
Not really an Asian way, just the way things are done in Cambodia.
The old Taiwanese way was the signature stamp. The stamp was legal proof of signature. If criminal stole your stamp, he could legally sign any document as you and it would be upheld in court.
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Freightdog
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Re: Logic 101
I’m not sure it is solely the Cambodian way, as it has similarities in many places. You need a man in the know in Saudi, Pakistan, India, Malaya. The rules are often clearly written, but are often overridden by custom. I once mentioned to a very drunk taxi driver in Almaty that I was surprised he was so drunk, given that he was a Muslim. His response was that Kazakhstan had Vodka long before it had Islam. It will likely take a long while for things to change.newkidontheblock wrote: ↑Tue Apr 02, 2019 6:56 pm Not really an Asian way, just the way things are done in Cambodia.
We used to remind ourselves that dealing with India and Bangladesh, there were several hundred years of Raj bullshit to undo, along with a country that had a bit of a reset in the 40s.
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