Tricky grammar question

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Kammekor
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Re: Tricky grammar question

Post by Kammekor » Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:47 pm

explorer wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:48 pm
siliconlife wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:06 pm
Yes, I learned the language in the same way. I dunno, this is just the way I've been using and taking note of people using the word រក and its partner verbs and adverbs. It's been working for me for a decade. I see រក as a kind of umbrella term related to finding things, similar to the way that ចេះ can be used in combination with many other words to talk about a wide variety of things related to knowledge and skills. I don't think these words really have direct equivalents in English.
រក ហើយ ឬ នៅ means: looked for (it) yet.

បាន ហើយ ឬ នៅ means: have (it) yet.

So if there was a situation where somebody had looked for something but not found it, they would say yes to the first question and no to the second one. But you may not be in a situation where this happens anytime soon.

ចេះ means "know how to."

Like we said above "បាន" means "have." Sometimes it may be translated "got" and "achieved."

Sometimes there may be a situation where ចេះ is translated to another word, but the fundamental meaning is "know how to."
I don't tink you fully grabbed the meaning of the word បាន (baan). It can be used in many instances, all having a different meaning. If there's one word you can only translate after you've received the full message it's the word baan, even more if you include spoken language / slang.
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Re: Tricky grammar question

Post by Kammekor » Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:57 pm

explorer wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:30 am
khmerhamster wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:17 am
explorer wrote:A bit more about ចេះ.

I said above ចេះ means "know how to."

One of the first things people will ask you is: Do you know how to speak Khmer?

Many English speakers will actually say: Can you speak Khmer?

So ចេះ can be translated as can. There are also many other situations where ចេះ may be translated as can.

To keep it simple, if you learn ចេះ means "know how to," but when you hear it used in a situation where it means "can," you should be able to understand what they are saying.
ចេះ is used for a skill - not knowledge
Speak khmer
Play football
Ride a motorbike
Make food
Fix a car
ចេះ is used for a skill - not knowledge. I agree. I would say it is something you know how to do.

know how to speak Khmer
know how to play football
know how to ride a motorbike
know how to make food
know how to fix a car

These could also be translated as:

can speak Khmer
can play football
can ride a motorbike
can make food
can fix a car
OK, splitting hairs here....

I know how to play football/soccer, I watch several matches every day. I know all the rules, all the tricks, but....

I can't play the game because I'm lacking skills.

When we use the word ចេះ (cheh) it's about skills, being able to do something, no about knowing how to do something. I think the English translation 'know how to' is not the best translation for ចេះ (cheh).
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Re: Tricky grammar question

Post by Jamie_Lambo » Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:11 pm

Kammekor wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:57 pm
explorer wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:30 am
khmerhamster wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:17 am
explorer wrote:A bit more about ចេះ.

I said above ចេះ means "know how to."

One of the first things people will ask you is: Do you know how to speak Khmer?

Many English speakers will actually say: Can you speak Khmer?

So ចេះ can be translated as can. There are also many other situations where ចេះ may be translated as can.

To keep it simple, if you learn ចេះ means "know how to," but when you hear it used in a situation where it means "can," you should be able to understand what they are saying.
ចេះ is used for a skill - not knowledge
Speak khmer
Play football
Ride a motorbike
Make food
Fix a car
ចេះ is used for a skill - not knowledge. I agree. I would say it is something you know how to do.

know how to speak Khmer
know how to play football
know how to ride a motorbike
know how to make food
know how to fix a car

These could also be translated as:

can speak Khmer
can play football
can ride a motorbike
can make food
can fix a car
OK, splitting hairs here....

I know how to play football/soccer, I watch several matches every day. I know all the rules, all the tricks, but....

I can't play the game because I'm lacking skills.

When we use the word ចេះ (cheh) it's about skills, being able to do something, no about knowing how to do something. I think the English translation 'know how to' is not the best translation for ចេះ (cheh).
yup ive tried explaining many times that comparing Khmer to English only holds you back or confuses/clouds the true Khmer meaning of words, they are 2 different languages unfortunately and the more you study it the more you realise it, as you know :thumb:
:tophat: Mean Dtuk Mean Trei, Mean Loy Mean Srey
Punchy McShortstacks School of Hard Knocks :x
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Kammekor
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Re: Tricky grammar question

Post by Kammekor » Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:12 pm

explorer wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 2:51 pm
siliconlife wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 1:46 pm
explorer wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 1:13 pm
explorer wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 1:13 pm
My understanding was that "រក" is closer to "find", but quite a broad term, whereas "រកមើល" would be "to look for"? And I use "រកបាន" to mean "found". This works for me in daily language.
"រក" means look for. "បាន" means have.

"រកបាន" means "look for - have," which means find or found. Found is the past tense of find. Same meaning, just different tense.
I have never personally heard someone use រកបាន to mean anything else but "found" (past tense), unless you wanted to say "want to find" but that is a different term. Whereas I frequently hear and use either រក or រករកមើល for present tense (find/look for). That's just to my experience though.
Somebody might say: I need to look for may car keys.

Somebody else might say: I need to find my car keys.

The two sentences could be used interchangeably in the same situation, and you could argue, have the near enough same meaning. រក is also used like this. It could replace "look for" or "find" in the above sentences. So in some situations, រក is used where we may use find. But the words "look for" and "find" have different meanings. If you ask, what រក actually means, it means look for.
You are just creating fog and confusion.

Of course, 'look for' and 'find' have different meanings, but 'look for' and 'have to find' are quite similar, and in both cases រក (rok) can be used.

If you say រកបាន (rok baan) it doesn't mean you already found the items, it just means you already looked for the items. Admitted, it's a bit slang. But if you want to indicate you looked for it and found it រកបាន (rok baan) isn't the first one I would use.
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Re: Tricky grammar question

Post by khmerhamster » Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:15 pm

Kammekor wrote:
explorer wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 2:51 pm
siliconlife wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 1:46 pm
explorer wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 1:13 pm
explorer wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 1:13 pm
My understanding was that "រក" is closer to "find", but quite a broad term, whereas "រកមើល" would be "to look for"? And I use "រកបាន" to mean "found". This works for me in daily language.
"រក" means look for. "បាន" means have.

"រកបាន" means "look for - have," which means find or found. Found is the past tense of find. Same meaning, just different tense.
I have never personally heard someone use រកបាន to mean anything else but "found" (past tense), unless you wanted to say "want to find" but that is a different term. Whereas I frequently hear and use either រក or រករកមើល for present tense (find/look for). That's just to my experience though.
Somebody might say: I need to look for may car keys.

Somebody else might say: I need to find my car keys.

The two sentences could be used interchangeably in the same situation, and you could argue, have the near enough same meaning. រក is also used like this. It could replace "look for" or "find" in the above sentences. So in some situations, រក is used where we may use find. But the words "look for" and "find" have different meanings. If you ask, what រក actually means, it means look for.
You are just creating fog and confusion.

Of course, 'look for' and 'find' have different meanings, but 'look for' and 'have to find' are quite similar, and in both cases រក (rok) can be used.

If you say រកបាន (rok baan) it doesn't mean you already found the items, it just means you already looked for the items. Admitted, it's a bit slang. But if you want to indicate you looked for it and found it រកបាន (rok baan) isn't the first one I would use.
Yeah I think I agree, រកបាន to me doesn’t indicate whether the search was successful or not.
រកឃើញ is what I’d generally use for having found something.
Or រកអត់ឃើញ if I looked but couldn’t find it.

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Re: Tricky grammar question

Post by explorer » Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:59 pm

Kammekor wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:57 pm
explorer wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:30 am
khmerhamster wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:17 am
explorer wrote:A bit more about ចេះ.

I said above ចេះ means "know how to."

One of the first things people will ask you is: Do you know how to speak Khmer?

Many English speakers will actually say: Can you speak Khmer?

So ចេះ can be translated as can. There are also many other situations where ចេះ may be translated as can.

To keep it simple, if you learn ចេះ means "know how to," but when you hear it used in a situation where it means "can," you should be able to understand what they are saying.
ចេះ is used for a skill - not knowledge
Speak khmer
Play football
Ride a motorbike
Make food
Fix a car
ចេះ is used for a skill - not knowledge. I agree. I would say it is something you know how to do.

know how to speak Khmer
know how to play football
know how to ride a motorbike
know how to make food
know how to fix a car

These could also be translated as:

can speak Khmer
can play football
can ride a motorbike
can make food
can fix a car
OK, splitting hairs here....

I know how to play football/soccer, I watch several matches every day. I know all the rules, all the tricks, but....

I can't play the game because I'm lacking skills.

When we use the word ចេះ (cheh) it's about skills, being able to do something, no about knowing how to do something. I think the English translation 'know how to' is not the best translation for ចេះ (cheh).
What do you think is the best way to translate ចេះ?
## I thought I knew all the answers, but they changed all the questions. ##
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Re: Tricky grammar question

Post by Jamie_Lambo » Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:28 pm

explorer wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:59 pm
Kammekor wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:57 pm
explorer wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:30 am
khmerhamster wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:17 am
explorer wrote:A bit more about ចេះ.

I said above ចេះ means "know how to."

One of the first things people will ask you is: Do you know how to speak Khmer?

Many English speakers will actually say: Can you speak Khmer?

So ចេះ can be translated as can. There are also many other situations where ចេះ may be translated as can.

To keep it simple, if you learn ចេះ means "know how to," but when you hear it used in a situation where it means "can," you should be able to understand what they are saying.
ចេះ is used for a skill - not knowledge
Speak khmer
Play football
Ride a motorbike
Make food
Fix a car
ចេះ is used for a skill - not knowledge. I agree. I would say it is something you know how to do.

know how to speak Khmer
know how to play football
know how to ride a motorbike
know how to make food
know how to fix a car

These could also be translated as:

can speak Khmer
can play football
can ride a motorbike
can make food
can fix a car
OK, splitting hairs here....

I know how to play football/soccer, I watch several matches every day. I know all the rules, all the tricks, but....

I can't play the game because I'm lacking skills.

When we use the word ចេះ (cheh) it's about skills, being able to do something, no about knowing how to do something. I think the English translation 'know how to' is not the best translation for ចេះ (cheh).
What do you think is the best way to translate ចេះ?
it depends on what word it is paired with/context of the sentence, a single word in Khmer can mean many different things depending on its pairing/context,

ចេះចាំ - To remember...
ចេះល្បីល្បាញ - To be famous...
អ្នកចេះ - An educated person...
មិនចេះចប់ - Endlessly/Infinitely

etc etc...
:tophat: Mean Dtuk Mean Trei, Mean Loy Mean Srey
Punchy McShortstacks School of Hard Knocks :x
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Kammekor
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Re: Tricky grammar question

Post by Kammekor » Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:49 am

Jamie_Lambo wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:28 pm
explorer wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:59 pm
Kammekor wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:57 pm
explorer wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:30 am
khmerhamster wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:17 am


ចេះ is used for a skill - not knowledge
Speak khmer
Play football
Ride a motorbike
Make food
Fix a car
ចេះ is used for a skill - not knowledge. I agree. I would say it is something you know how to do.

know how to speak Khmer
know how to play football
know how to ride a motorbike
know how to make food
know how to fix a car

These could also be translated as:

can speak Khmer
can play football
can ride a motorbike
can make food
can fix a car
OK, splitting hairs here....

I know how to play football/soccer, I watch several matches every day. I know all the rules, all the tricks, but....

I can't play the game because I'm lacking skills.

When we use the word ចេះ (cheh) it's about skills, being able to do something, no about knowing how to do something. I think the English translation 'know how to' is not the best translation for ចេះ (cheh).
What do you think is the best way to translate ចេះ?
it depends on what word it is paired with/context of the sentence, a single word in Khmer can mean many different things depending on its pairing/context,

ចេះចាំ - To remember...
ចេះល្បីល្បាញ - To be famous...
អ្នកចេះ - An educated person...
មិនចេះចប់ - Endlessly/Infinitely

etc etc...
Exactly this. Explorer, you seem to look at the word ចេះ (cheh) as just a verb, but when you combine it with other words it could become part of a noun or even an expression where the word ចេះ can not simply be translated with the same English word all the time. If you want to translate Khmer to English you can not always use a one-on-one translation.
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Re: Tricky grammar question

Post by Jamie_Lambo » Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:22 am

Kammekor wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:49 am
Jamie_Lambo wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:28 pm
explorer wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:59 pm
Kammekor wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:57 pm
explorer wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:30 am


ចេះ is used for a skill - not knowledge. I agree. I would say it is something you know how to do.

know how to speak Khmer
know how to play football
know how to ride a motorbike
know how to make food
know how to fix a car

These could also be translated as:

can speak Khmer
can play football
can ride a motorbike
can make food
can fix a car
OK, splitting hairs here....

I know how to play football/soccer, I watch several matches every day. I know all the rules, all the tricks, but....

I can't play the game because I'm lacking skills.

When we use the word ចេះ (cheh) it's about skills, being able to do something, no about knowing how to do something. I think the English translation 'know how to' is not the best translation for ចេះ (cheh).
What do you think is the best way to translate ចេះ?
it depends on what word it is paired with/context of the sentence, a single word in Khmer can mean many different things depending on its pairing/context,

ចេះចាំ - To remember...
ចេះល្បីល្បាញ - To be famous...
អ្នកចេះ - An educated person...
មិនចេះចប់ - Endlessly/Infinitely

etc etc...
Exactly this. Explorer, you seem to look at the word ចេះ (cheh) as just a verb, but when you combine it with other words it could become part of a noun or even an expression where the word ចេះ can not simply be translated with the same English word all the time. If you want to translate Khmer to English you can not always use a one-on-one translation.
one way you can look at it (if you are a Sciency guy) is that Khmer words are often like Molecules and Compounds, for example,
youve got the word Hydrogen (H) and the word Oxygen (O), but if you join them together they become the word Water (H2O),
Iron (Fe) and Oxygen (O) together become Rust (Fe2O3),
Sodium (Na) and Chloride (Cl) together become Salt (NaCl)
Carbon (C) Hydrogen (H) and Oxygen (O) together become Sugar (C12H22O11)
etc.

Change one word in the Compound and it becomes a different word with a different meaning
:tophat: Mean Dtuk Mean Trei, Mean Loy Mean Srey
Punchy McShortstacks School of Hard Knocks :x
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Re: Tricky grammar question

Post by siliconlife » Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:47 pm

Jamie_Lambo wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:28 am
explorer wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 1:13 pm
siliconlife wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 12:28 pm
My understanding was that "រក" is closer to "find", but quite a broad term, whereas "រកមើល" would be "to look for"? And I use "រកបាន" to mean "found". This works for me in daily language.
"រក" means look for. "បាន" means have.

"រកបាន" means "look for - have," which means find or found. Found is the past tense of find. Same meaning, just different tense.

please, if you using បាន baan as a past tense particle you need to put it before the thing youre talking about,
if you are saying you found something you would say Baan Rok Hery (searched already) not Rok Baan
Khmer Grammar 101
Interesting, me and my wife have never heard of this before, is this formal grammar?
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