Tricky grammar question

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Re: Tricky grammar question

Post by explorer » Sun Feb 10, 2019 2:51 pm

siliconlife wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 1:46 pm
explorer wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 1:13 pm
siliconlife wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 12:28 pm
My understanding was that "រក" is closer to "find", but quite a broad term, whereas "រកមើល" would be "to look for"? And I use "រកបាន" to mean "found". This works for me in daily language.
"រក" means look for. "បាន" means have.

"រកបាន" means "look for - have," which means find or found. Found is the past tense of find. Same meaning, just different tense.
I have never personally heard someone use រកបាន to mean anything else but "found" (past tense), unless you wanted to say "want to find" but that is a different term. Whereas I frequently hear and use either រក or រករកមើល for present tense (find/look for). That's just to my experience though.
Somebody might say: I need to look for may car keys.

Somebody else might say: I need to find my car keys.

The two sentences could be used interchangeably in the same situation, and you could argue, have the near enough same meaning. រក is also used like this. It could replace "look for" or "find" in the above sentences. So in some situations, រក is used where we may use find. But the words "look for" and "find" have different meanings. If you ask, what រក actually means, it means look for.
siliconlife wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 1:46 pm
បាន also means "get" though, and could even be compared to "achieve".
Yes, បាន can also mean "got" and "achieved."

When I learn Khmer, I like to learn the meaning of the sentence and each word. The words will come up in different sentences, so if you know them already, it is easier to learn new sentences.

If you ask: What is the time?

In Khmer it is: ម៉ោង ​ប៉ុន្មាន ​ហើយ?

ម៉ោង means hour.

ប៉ុន្មាន means how many.

ហើយ means already.

So they are actually saying: Hour how many already?

Because they often say things in a different way to us, learning is more efficient if you learn the meaning of the sentence, and each word.

Then when you learn: How much does it cost?

In Khmer it is: ​ថ្លៃ​ ប៉ុន្មាន

Which actually means "Expense how many?"
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Re: Tricky grammar question

Post by siliconlife » Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:06 pm

explorer wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 2:51 pm
siliconlife wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 1:46 pm
explorer wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 1:13 pm
siliconlife wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 12:28 pm
My understanding was that "រក" is closer to "find", but quite a broad term, whereas "រកមើល" would be "to look for"? And I use "រកបាន" to mean "found". This works for me in daily language.
"រក" means look for. "បាន" means have.

"រកបាន" means "look for - have," which means find or found. Found is the past tense of find. Same meaning, just different tense.
I have never personally heard someone use រកបាន to mean anything else but "found" (past tense), unless you wanted to say "want to find" but that is a different term. Whereas I frequently hear and use either រក or រករកមើល for present tense (find/look for). That's just to my experience though.
Somebody might say: I need to look for may car keys.

Somebody else might say: I need to find my car keys.

The two sentences could be used interchangeably in the same situation, and you could argue, have the near enough same meaning. រក is also used like this. It could replace "look for" or "find" in the above sentences. So in some situations, រក is used where we may use find. But the words "look for" and "find" have different meanings. If you ask, what រក actually means, it means look for.
siliconlife wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 1:46 pm
បាន also means "get" though, and could even be compared to "achieve".
Yes, បាន can also mean "got" and "achieved."

When I learn Khmer, I like to learn the meaning of the sentence and each word. The words will come up in different sentences, so if you know them already, it is easier to learn new sentences.

If you ask: What is the time?

In Khmer it is: ម៉ោង ​ប៉ុន្មាន ​ហើយ?

ម៉ោង means hour.

ប៉ុន្មាន means how many.

ហើយ means already.

So they are actually saying: Hour how many already?

Because they often say things in a different way to us, learning is more efficient if you learn the meaning of the sentence, and each word.

Then when you learn: How much does it cost?

In Khmer it is: ​ថ្លៃ​ ប៉ុន្មាន

Which actually means "Expense how many?"
Yes, I learned the language in the same way. I dunno, this is just the way I've been using and taking note of people using the word រក and its partner verbs and adverbs. It's been working for me for a decade. I see រក as a kind of umbrella term related to finding things, similar to the way that ចេះ can be used in combination with many other words to talk about a wide variety of things related to knowledge and skills. I don't think these words really have direct equivalents in English.
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Re: Tricky grammar question

Post by explorer » Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:48 pm

siliconlife wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:06 pm
Yes, I learned the language in the same way. I dunno, this is just the way I've been using and taking note of people using the word រក and its partner verbs and adverbs. It's been working for me for a decade. I see រក as a kind of umbrella term related to finding things, similar to the way that ចេះ can be used in combination with many other words to talk about a wide variety of things related to knowledge and skills. I don't think these words really have direct equivalents in English.
រក ហើយ ឬ នៅ means: looked for (it) yet.

បាន ហើយ ឬ នៅ means: have (it) yet.

So if there was a situation where somebody had looked for something but not found it, they would say yes to the first question and no to the second one. But you may not be in a situation where this happens anytime soon.

ចេះ means "know how to."

Like we said above "បាន" means "have." Sometimes it may be translated "got" and "achieved."

Sometimes there may be a situation where ចេះ is translated to another word, but the fundamental meaning is "know how to."
## I thought I knew all the answers, but they changed all the questions. ##
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Re: Tricky grammar question

Post by siliconlife » Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:07 pm

explorer wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:48 pm
siliconlife wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:06 pm
Yes, I learned the language in the same way. I dunno, this is just the way I've been using and taking note of people using the word រក and its partner verbs and adverbs. It's been working for me for a decade. I see រក as a kind of umbrella term related to finding things, similar to the way that ចេះ can be used in combination with many other words to talk about a wide variety of things related to knowledge and skills. I don't think these words really have direct equivalents in English.
រក ហើយ ឬ នៅ means: looked for (it) yet.

បាន ហើយ ឬ នៅ means: have (it) yet.

So if there was a situation where somebody had looked for something but not found it, they would say yes to the first question and no to the second one. But you may not be in a situation where this happens anytime soon.

ចេះ means "know how to."

Like we said above "បាន" means "have." Sometimes it may be translated "got" and "achieved."

Sometimes there may be a situation where ចេះ is translated to another word, but the fundamental meaning is "know how to."
បាន is a more complex word than just 'have', as also discussed, and not the most common word for 'have'. To my experience it is much closer to "get" but, I don't believe these singular words can be simplified so easily into English terms. The grammatical contexts that are used are too different. I don't think learning a language well is about how we translate singular words, but rather how we should understand them within their own linguistic context. They all have meanings of course, but translating sentences is much easier than translating singular words, due to the huge differences between the languages and the variance in the way they use grammar and the different multiple meanings each language can assign to single words.
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Re: Tricky grammar question

Post by explorer » Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:26 pm

siliconlife wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:07 pm
បាន is a more complex word than just 'have', as also discussed, and not the most common word for 'have'. To my experience it is much closer to "get" but, I don't believe these singular words can be simplified so easily into English terms. The grammatical contexts that are used are too different. I don't think learning a language well is about how we translate singular words, but rather how we should understand them within their own linguistic context. They all have meanings of course, but translating sentences is much easier than translating singular words, due to the huge differences between the languages and the variance in the way they use grammar and the different multiple meanings each language can assign to single words.
I dont disagree, but to remember one meaning of a word is easier than remembering 20. I tend to think in terms of the key meaning of a word, knowing that it may sometimes be translated differently, but still makes sense if you understand the key meaning.
## I thought I knew all the answers, but they changed all the questions. ##
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Re: Tricky grammar question

Post by explorer » Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:25 pm

A bit more about ចេះ.

I said above ចេះ means "know how to."

One of the first things people will ask you is: Do you know how to speak Khmer?

Many English speakers will actually say: Can you speak Khmer?

So ចេះ can be translated as can. There are also many other situations where ចេះ may be translated as can.

To keep it simple, if you learn ចេះ means "know how to," but when you hear it used in a situation where it means "can," you should be able to understand what they are saying.
## I thought I knew all the answers, but they changed all the questions. ##
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Re: Tricky grammar question

Post by Jamie_Lambo » Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:28 am

explorer wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 1:13 pm
siliconlife wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 12:28 pm
My understanding was that "រក" is closer to "find", but quite a broad term, whereas "រកមើល" would be "to look for"? And I use "រកបាន" to mean "found". This works for me in daily language.
"រក" means look for. "បាន" means have.

"រកបាន" means "look for - have," which means find or found. Found is the past tense of find. Same meaning, just different tense.

please, if you using បាន baan as a past tense particle you need to put it before the thing youre talking about,
if you are saying you found something you would say Baan Rok Hery (searched already) not Rok Baan
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Re: Tricky grammar question

Post by taabarang » Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:20 am

Kan Tae pleu jiweut Kan Tae pibak.
As my old Cajun bait seller used to say, "I opes you luck.
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Re: Tricky grammar question

Post by khmerhamster » Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:17 am

explorer wrote:A bit more about ចេះ.

I said above ចេះ means "know how to."

One of the first things people will ask you is: Do you know how to speak Khmer?

Many English speakers will actually say: Can you speak Khmer?

So ចេះ can be translated as can. There are also many other situations where ចេះ may be translated as can.

To keep it simple, if you learn ចេះ means "know how to," but when you hear it used in a situation where it means "can," you should be able to understand what they are saying.
ចេះ is used for a skill - not knowledge
Speak khmer
Play football
Ride a motorbike
Make food
Fix a car
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Re: Tricky grammar question

Post by explorer » Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:30 am

khmerhamster wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:17 am
explorer wrote:A bit more about ចេះ.

I said above ចេះ means "know how to."

One of the first things people will ask you is: Do you know how to speak Khmer?

Many English speakers will actually say: Can you speak Khmer?

So ចេះ can be translated as can. There are also many other situations where ចេះ may be translated as can.

To keep it simple, if you learn ចេះ means "know how to," but when you hear it used in a situation where it means "can," you should be able to understand what they are saying.
ចេះ is used for a skill - not knowledge
Speak khmer
Play football
Ride a motorbike
Make food
Fix a car
ចេះ is used for a skill - not knowledge. I agree. I would say it is something you know how to do.

know how to speak Khmer
know how to play football
know how to ride a motorbike
know how to make food
know how to fix a car

These could also be translated as:

can speak Khmer
can play football
can ride a motorbike
can make food
can fix a car
## I thought I knew all the answers, but they changed all the questions. ##
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