Another Cambodia-Thailand's Cultural Matter Dispute

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Re: Another Cambodia-Thailand's Cultural Matter Dispute

Post by Jamie_Lambo » Thu Jun 09, 2016 1:46 pm

mushrooms wrote:
Samouth wrote:
mushrooms wrote:
dopmoto wrote:
Samouth wrote:who is that dopmoto, sound like someone's sock-puppet. BTW, Being a Cambodian, of course i am concerning about it. No doubt, i wouldn't want Unesco to recognize it as it was originated from Thailand. Everyone knew history know that it is originated from Cambodia. It was found even before Thailand became a country. Also, not to mention, it is true that Thailand stole our culture. If you are speaking to an educated Thai, she or he would agree on that.

samouth thai stole more cultures than you think.

the whole culture of thailand is just bits and pieces of other cultures.
We can say the same about Cambodian culture too. It's time for Cambodians to finally recognize that they owe a lot of their cultural richness to the Thais. Of course this will probably never happen because Cambodians think they created everything.

I am surprised that the Thais even want to associate with UNESCO now after they approved the Royal Ballet of Cambodia as a "unique" cultural heritage. Because the Thais know all along that RBoC is a hack, a poorer imitation of Thai dance (this is well researched and backed up by their academics and Japanese and a European). UNESCO probably allowed it because they thought, oh, poor Cambodia...
it would be great if you could write it a bit more precisely. I don't think i get you on this matter.

Let's look at music. Sin Sisamouth utilized a lot of of classical dance tunes in his songs. He based them on music he learned from being a singer in the royal ballet. The Royal Ballet of Cambodia uses music from 19th century compositions that are attributed to Thai authors. Some other ones that are not attributed are claimed to be from Ayuthaya period and appear to have been based on other cultures. Some are parodies of Chinese or Burmese tunes for example. As a nation, Cambodians did not have diplomatic or cultural relations with the Burmese, if anything, it would be rare. One famous tune that exists, what we call "Chao Dok" , is based of a Burmese tune. Other examples of Burmese tunes that work it's way into Cambodian culture via the Thai is a famous song called "Mak Theurng" about a couple in the market selling perfume and stuff. The name is not even Khmer.

This is just one facet of Cambodian culture which shows Thai influence. There are many, many, other examples that can be said.
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Re: Another Cambodia-Thailand's Cultural Matter Dispute

Post by Jamie_Lambo » Thu Jun 09, 2016 1:55 pm

Samouth wrote:
willyhilly wrote:When did Thailand become a country? This is like NZ and Australia arguing over the pavlova isn't it.
Thailand became a country in 13 century which was after the Angkor Wat was built. If they still claimed that Angkor Want is belong to them. I would ask them to STFU. If they didn't invade us when we became weak, they would never ever take over Angkor Wat. Kudos to French Colony though.
1238 it became an independent country, its only been known as thailand since 1939
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Re: Another Cambodia-Thailand's Cultural Matter Dispute

Post by Jamie_Lambo » Thu Jun 09, 2016 2:54 pm

mushrooms wrote:
dopmoto wrote:
Samouth wrote:who is that dopmoto, sound like someone's sock-puppet. BTW, Being a Cambodian, of course i am concerning about it. No doubt, i wouldn't want Unesco to recognize it as it was originated from Thailand. Everyone knew history know that it is originated from Cambodia. It was found even before Thailand became a country. Also, not to mention, it is true that Thailand stole our culture. If you are speaking to an educated Thai, she or he would agree on that.

samouth thai stole more cultures than you think.

the whole culture of thailand is just bits and pieces of other cultures.
We can say the same about Cambodian culture too. It's time for Cambodians to finally recognize that they owe a lot of their cultural richness to the Thais. Of course this will probably never happen because Cambodians think they created everything.
.
Thailand?
you mean India surely? Cambodia was originally Hindu, and had Buddhism as a secondary religion as far back as 500BC in the Funan Kingdom, Buddhism came from India and was adopted as the countries main religion during the Angkor period (which modern day Thailand was apart of) the Khmers were building buddhist temples in Thailand before the Sukhothai + Ayutthaya kingdoms had even adopted Buddhism as the state religion...
a lot of Cambodia culture also comes from India, Apsara/Devata Dancers etc is another thing that comes from india...
Thailands National/Traditional clothing is based on the traditional clothing from the old cambodian Funan kingdom

what cultural richness's did Cambodia get from the Thais?
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Re: Another Cambodia-Thailand's Cultural Matter Dispute

Post by SinnSisamouth » Thu Jun 09, 2016 2:57 pm

and bktrapper then you can have all cnuts in one place.
i am on these blocked lists;
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Re: Another Cambodia-Thailand's Cultural Matter Dispute

Post by Jamie_Lambo » Thu Jun 09, 2016 3:18 pm

John Bingham wrote:A few late 19th century photos don't prove anything. The dance most likely originated here, was taken to Thailand, adapted and eventually returned in a changed form. The Cambodian and Thai courts were very close at various periods in the 17th-19th centuries and denying that there were influences going both ways is silly.
were not talking about Chicken Tikka Masala here, which is actually an British dish, it was invented in Scotland, but technically its Indian, its adapted from Indian recipes etc. so while its a British dish its still technically Indian, we cant really call it a British

you could use a similar logic for this, while the Thais have "adapted" their own version (theres a lot more similarities than differences), its still technically Traditionally Khmer... but were not talking about food here

its a Thai version of a Traditional Khmer Dance and should be labeled as so
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Re: Another Cambodia-Thailand's Cultural Matter Dispute

Post by John Bingham » Thu Jun 09, 2016 6:49 pm

Cambodia almost disappeared in the early 19th century after a series of invasions from Vietnam and Siam. There were long periods when there was no royal court, and the country almost ceased to exist. The royals were often at each other's throats, taking shelter or held captive by Viets/Thais.
The only reason Khmer traditional dancing still exists is because it was reintroduced - from the court in Bangkok.
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Re: Another Cambodia-Thailand's Cultural Matter Dispute

Post by mushrooms » Fri Jun 10, 2016 12:06 pm

Jamie_Lambo wrote:
mushrooms wrote:
dopmoto wrote:
Samouth wrote:who is that dopmoto, sound like someone's sock-puppet. BTW, Being a Cambodian, of course i am concerning about it. No doubt, i wouldn't want Unesco to recognize it as it was originated from Thailand. Everyone knew history know that it is originated from Cambodia. It was found even before Thailand became a country. Also, not to mention, it is true that Thailand stole our culture. If you are speaking to an educated Thai, she or he would agree on that.

samouth thai stole more cultures than you think.

the whole culture of thailand is just bits and pieces of other cultures.
We can say the same about Cambodian culture too. It's time for Cambodians to finally recognize that they owe a lot of their cultural richness to the Thais. Of course this will probably never happen because Cambodians think they created everything.
.
Thailand?
you mean India surely? Cambodia was originally Hindu, and had Buddhism as a secondary religion as far back as 500BC in the Funan Kingdom, Buddhism came from India and was adopted as the countries main religion during the Angkor period (which modern day Thailand was apart of) the Khmers were building buddhist temples in Thailand before the Sukhothai + Ayutthaya kingdoms had even adopted Buddhism as the state religion...
a lot of Cambodia culture also comes from India, Apsara/Devata Dancers etc is another thing that comes from india...
Thailands National/Traditional clothing is based on the traditional clothing from the old cambodian Funan kingdom

what cultural richness's did Cambodia get from the Thais?
Directly from India? That's debatable. I believe it was the Chams and Sailendra (Javanese) that brought over Indian culture to Cambodia. So there is a layer of some other cultures in the "Indian culture" that ancient Cambodians adopted.

The Buddhism that exists in Cambodia today is not the same as that which existed in the Angkor period and before. Another thing that owes it self to Thai influence. The two Buddhist sects today are based on Thai Buddhism and probably was influence from Burmese Buddhism in turn.

What I am saying is, Thai culture flourished in the Ayuthaya and Ratanakosin period. The wealth they garnered in these periods brought on new, creative changes to culture and were unlike anything that they may have taken from the ancient Khmers. They mish-mashed ideas from various cultures, from the Malays, to the Burmese, to the Chinese. The Thais actually insist a lot of the present-day classical dance we see in Thailand and Cambodia ultimately comes from Malay folk dances/rituals. The Thais refined this in the Ayuthaya era and it slowly evolved into what is now. And Cambodia receiving this dance culture somewhere in the 1800s.

And apsara dance is just a facade, it uses present-day classical dance and puts on garb inspired by the bas-reliefs.
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Re: Another Cambodia-Thailand's Cultural Matter Dispute

Post by Jamie_Lambo » Fri Jun 10, 2016 5:00 pm

mushrooms wrote:
Jamie_Lambo wrote:
mushrooms wrote:
dopmoto wrote:
Samouth wrote:who is that dopmoto, sound like someone's sock-puppet. BTW, Being a Cambodian, of course i am concerning about it. No doubt, i wouldn't want Unesco to recognize it as it was originated from Thailand. Everyone knew history know that it is originated from Cambodia. It was found even before Thailand became a country. Also, not to mention, it is true that Thailand stole our culture. If you are speaking to an educated Thai, she or he would agree on that.

samouth thai stole more cultures than you think.

the whole culture of thailand is just bits and pieces of other cultures.
We can say the same about Cambodian culture too. It's time for Cambodians to finally recognize that they owe a lot of their cultural richness to the Thais. Of course this will probably never happen because Cambodians think they created everything.
.
Thailand?
you mean India surely? Cambodia was originally Hindu, and had Buddhism as a secondary religion as far back as 500BC in the Funan Kingdom, Buddhism came from India and was adopted as the countries main religion during the Angkor period (which modern day Thailand was apart of) the Khmers were building buddhist temples in Thailand before the Sukhothai + Ayutthaya kingdoms had even adopted Buddhism as the state religion...
a lot of Cambodia culture also comes from India, Apsara/Devata Dancers etc is another thing that comes from india...
Thailands National/Traditional clothing is based on the traditional clothing from the old cambodian Funan kingdom

what cultural richness's did Cambodia get from the Thais?
Directly from India? That's debatable. I believe it was the Chams and Sailendra (Javanese) that brought over Indian culture to Cambodia. So there is a layer of some other cultures in the "Indian culture" that ancient Cambodians adopted.

The Buddhism that exists in Cambodia today is not the same as that which existed in the Angkor period and before. Another thing that owes it self to Thai influence. The two Buddhist sects today are based on Thai Buddhism and probably was influence from Burmese Buddhism in turn.

What I am saying is, Thai culture flourished in the Ayuthaya and Ratanakosin period. The wealth they garnered in these periods brought on new, creative changes to culture and were unlike anything that they may have taken from the ancient Khmers. They mish-mashed ideas from various cultures, from the Malays, to the Burmese, to the Chinese. The Thais actually insist a lot of the present-day classical dance we see in Thailand and Cambodia ultimately comes from Malay folk dances/rituals. The Thais refined this in the Ayuthaya era and it slowly evolved into what is now. And Cambodia receiving this dance culture somewhere in the 1800s.

And apsara dance is just a facade, it uses present-day classical dance and puts on garb inspired by the bas-reliefs.
im too hungover for this im off copying and pasting again lol

the Khmer + Thai Language comes from India (sanskrit + Pali)
why would the Chams (muslims) bring over hinduism and buddhism?
By the second century C.E. Funan controlled the strategic coastline of Indochina and the maritime trade routes. Cultural and religious ideas reached Funan via the Indian Ocean trade route. Trade with India had commenced well before 500 BC as Sanskrit hadn't yet replaced Pali.[44] Indian author Dr. Pragya Mishra observes: "Funan Was One Of The Colonies Established By Indians Within Cambodia...[sic]" in his essay "Cultural History of Indian Diaspora in Cambodia".[45] Funans language has been determined as to have been an early form of Khmer and its written form was Sanskrit.[46]
Hindu + Buddhist influences came through to Java in the 5th Century through the same India trade routes
Hindu and Buddhist influences arrived through trade contacts with the Indian subcontinent.[20] Hindu and Buddhist proselytizers arrived in the 5th century.
Theravada Buddhism comes from Sri Lanka, not Thailand??
During the 5th to 13th centuries, Southeast Asian empires were influenced directly from India and followed Mahayana Buddhism. The Chinese pilgrim Yijing noted in his travels that in these areas, all major sects of Indian Buddhism flourished.[3] Srivijaya to the south and the Khmer Empire to the north competed for influence and their art expressed the rich Mahāyāna pantheon of bodhisattvas. From the 9th to the 13th centuries, the Mahāyāna and Hindu Khmer Empire dominated much of the Southeast Asian peninsula. Under the Khmer Empire, more than 900 temples were built in Cambodia and in neighboring Thailand.

After the decline of Buddhism in India, missions of Sinhalese monks gradually converted the Mon people and the Pyu city-states from Ari Buddhism to Theravāda and over the next two centuries also brought Theravāda Buddhism to the Bamar people, Thailand, Laos and Cambodia, where it supplanted previous forms of Buddhism.[4]
King Jayavarman VII had sent his son Tamalinda to Sri Lanka to be ordained as a Buddhist monk and study Theravada Buddhism according to the Pali scriptural traditions. Tamalinda then returned to Cambodia and promoted Buddhist traditions according to the Theravada training he had received, galvanizing and energizing the long-standing Theravada presence that had existed throughout the Angkor empire for centuries.
The post-Angkor period saw the dramatic rise of the Pali Theravada tradition in Southeast Asia and concomitant decline of the Brahmanic and Mahayana Buddhist religious traditions. A 1423 Thai account of a mission to Sri Lanka mentions eight Khmer monks who again brought orthodox Mahavihara sect of Singhalese order to Kampuchea.
again i dont see how you can say Thailand have been the biggest influence on the Khmer culture, when its clearly India... must be trolling lol
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Re: Another Cambodia-Thailand's Cultural Matter Dispute

Post by Jamie_Lambo » Fri Jun 10, 2016 5:12 pm

John Bingham wrote:Cambodia almost disappeared in the early 19th century after a series of invasions from Vietnam and Siam. There were long periods when there was no royal court, and the country almost ceased to exist. The royals were often at each other's throats, taking shelter or held captive by Viets/Thais.
The only reason Khmer traditional dancing still exists is because it was reintroduced - from the court in Bangkok.
i know about the invasions but not much about the courts, not really into politics lol

So they stole the Khmers traditional dancing, then when things got stable after the dark ages when the French came over to colonize and give cambodia protection, Thailand gave them their dance back but said its ours now? lol
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Re: Another Cambodia-Thailand's Cultural Matter Dispute

Post by phuketrichard » Fri Jun 10, 2016 6:20 pm

So they stole the Khmers traditional dancing, then when things got stable after the dark ages when the French came over to colonize and give cambodia protection, Thailand gave them their dance back but said its ours now? lol
Nobody stole anything.
the dance, the music, the building, all came from somewhere else, but each country adapted the form and made it their own.

Look at Koh Ker, look at the Pyramids
hundreds of examples to choose from :beer3:
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