You...you...Yuon!

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Re: You...you...Yuon!

Postby LTO » Wed Jun 04, 2014 6:59 pm

OrangeDragon wrote:I thought we were speaking on the Vietnamese gov't declaration that they would only be called Vietnamese...
I see. And I just provided you with an example and cite of its explicit pejorative use prior to the VN occupation and supposed VN demonization of the word.
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Re: You...you...Yuon!

Postby OrangeDragon » Wed Jun 04, 2014 7:08 pm

LTO wrote:
OrangeDragon wrote:I thought we were speaking on the Vietnamese gov't declaration that they would only be called Vietnamese...
I see. And I just provided you with an example and cite of its explicit pejorative use prior to the VN occupation and supposed VN demonization of the word.
Correct, it was during the KR/LN demonization of the Vietnamese.

That it means savage has been heavily debated, and makes little sense considering they have a completely different word (and have) for savage that is common use.

I suspect that ANY word used to reference them in that time would have fit into that quote exactly the same... regardless of if it had a secondary meaning before.
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Re: You...you...Yuon!

Postby LTO » Wed Jun 04, 2014 7:18 pm

OrangeDragon wrote:
LTO wrote:
OrangeDragon wrote:I thought we were speaking on the Vietnamese gov't declaration that they would only be called Vietnamese...
I see. And I just provided you with an example and cite of its explicit pejorative use prior to the VN occupation and supposed VN demonization of the word.
Correct, it was during the KR/LN demonization of the Vietnamese.

That it means savage has been heavily debated, and makes little sense considering they have a completely different word (and have) for savage that is common use.
I don't think it means savage either.

If it was the KR and LN that demonized the word, then it was not the Vietnamese government, it was the Khmer themselves. This kind if defeats the whole 'the VN did it' argument.

Anyway, that is not the usual blame shifting claim made by Khmers who want to use the word. The claim is that it was demonized by the VN post-79, during the occupation. I have never heard anybody claim that the VN tried to demonize the word prior to the occupation. The standard retort is that the pejorative use under the KR and LN was an aberration.
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Re: You...you...Yuon!

Postby OrangeDragon » Wed Jun 04, 2014 7:23 pm

Ah, as I understood it they were 2 separate cases of demonizing it. One by the KR/LN because they hated the Vietnamese, and one by the Vietnamese after the occupation at least in part because having just unified the country they wanted to ONLY be known as Vietnamese to anyone. Because prior to that there had, in Vietnam, been different names for north/south Vietnamese. Sort of an enforced unity thing. And as a result, while occupying Cambodia (when such declaration was quite fresh) they would also not tolerate usage of any word but "Vietnamese" from the Khmer.

Honestly, either is believable in my opinion. But I wonder how much reach the KR/LN actions would have into Vietnam to make such a thing considered pejorative to the population at large... or how much of a lasting impact it would have to make it pejorative to current generations.
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Re: You...you...Yuon!

Postby JBTrain » Thu Jun 05, 2014 9:01 am

LTO wrote:
OrangeDragon wrote:
LTO wrote:
OrangeDragon wrote:I thought we were speaking on the Vietnamese gov't declaration that they would only be called Vietnamese...
I see. And I just provided you with an example and cite of its explicit pejorative use prior to the VN occupation and supposed VN demonization of the word.
Correct, it was during the KR/LN demonization of the Vietnamese.

That it means savage has been heavily debated, and makes little sense considering they have a completely different word (and have) for savage that is common use.
I don't think it means savage either.

If it was the KR and LN that demonized the word, then it was not the Vietnamese government, it was the Khmer themselves. This kind if defeats the whole 'the VN did it' argument.

Anyway, that is not the usual blame shifting claim made by Khmers who want to use the word. The claim is that it was demonized by the VN post-79, during the occupation. I have never heard anybody claim that the VN tried to demonize the word prior to the occupation. The standard retort is that the pejorative use under the KR and LN was an aberration.
Some time ago I posted on 440 a letter from a French education official discussing Yuon as a pejorative term. This was circa 1945.
This was not an invention of the KR:

" The Khmers of Cochinchina maintain generally with Annamites the divested of sympathy relations. These call them with condescension, “Tho”, that is the “men of the land”, but Cambodians make contempt for contempt, by treating the others of “Yuon”, as the sanskrit “Yuvana”, that is of “Barbarian of the North”[7]. It is certain that these hostilities, based on incompatibilities of customs, language, religion and also, on all the bitterness of former dispossessions, have the effect of provoking a kind of latent friction, harmful to the social peace, and which demands the control of an arbitrator."

Ref: Louis Malleret, at Saigon, on December 17th, 1945, under the patronage of the Office of Cultural Affairs of the Federal Service of the Public Education, for the officers and the civil servants of the Indochina Expeditionary Force (French), reproduced entirely under the title « The Cambodian Minority of Cochinchina » in the  « Bulletin of the Society of the Indo-China Studies », Tome XXI, 1st semester 1946, S.I.L.I ., Saigon on 1946.

https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!msg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... hpj2eccxwJ
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Re: You...you...Yuon!

Postby OrangeDragon » Thu Jun 05, 2014 1:01 pm

Above is one side of the debate... based on a single french librarians interpretation, just after he became secretary general.

The other is that it originates from the word Yueh, from the mandarin name for the Vietnamese Yueh Nam, and supposedly fairly close to what the Vietnamese called themselves (pronunciation wise) around that time. It would also stand well why the N. Vietnamese government wanted this term struck, as its Chinese origin specifically related to those in the south.

It's not unthinkable that because of the early conflict it DID gain the secondary relationship to savage. Just as "Indian" came to mean savage. "Indian" (in the context of American Indians) doesn't still mean savage to this day, but if you based it on a Vietnamese scholar's interpretation of the word from 1820 it certainly would... and even still today it's also not properly identifying them by their tribe name, as not all Indians are the same 'nationality', but it's also not seen as derogatory.

And "Native American" is just PC silliness.
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Re: You...you...Yuon!

Postby OrangeDragon » Thu Jun 05, 2014 1:06 pm

One quote I enjoy speaking of the alternative:
The new acceptable term for Yuon is Vietnam. As pronounced by Khmer people with our unique accent, it sounds like "Yak-nam," "Yak" being the mystical giant that eats humans. I prefer to think of my Vietnamese friends as Yuon rather than as blood-thirsty giants.
And on the subject as a whole:
To be able to live and have the dignity to use your language without others telling you that certain words have a negative connotation is a luxury that Cambodians do not have.
http://www.amazon.com/Reflections-Khmer ... 1587368617" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: You...you...Yuon!

Postby JBTrain » Thu Jun 05, 2014 1:33 pm

Is there a reason we're having this discussion here when we the same people have done this "over there"?
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Re: You...you...Yuon!

Postby OrangeDragon » Thu Jun 05, 2014 1:51 pm

JBTrain wrote:Is there a reason we're having this discussion here when we the same people have done this "over there"?
Vlad brought it up, we have some different readers who may also be interested in it, etc..? 310 views on 38 posts, seems to be something people want to read.
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Re: You...you...Yuon!

Postby JBTrain » Thu Jun 05, 2014 2:04 pm

OrangeDragon wrote:
JBTrain wrote:Is there a reason we're having this discussion here when we the same people have done this "over there"?
Vlad brought it up, we have some different readers who may also be interested in it, etc..? 310 views on 38 posts, seems to be something people want to read.
Fine . I see one poster i don't recognize from the 440 debate. I have no more to contribute.
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