You...you...Yuon!

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Re: You...you...Yuon!

Postby OrangeDragon » Wed Jun 04, 2014 5:29 pm

LTO wrote:
OrangeDragon wrote:I don't... in the same boat as you sadly.
I don't understand. In what way?
As in I've heard if from a lot of people (thus presumed it to be based on fact... and not unlike a communist government to do) but have no link for verification.
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Re: You...you...Yuon!

Postby LTO » Wed Jun 04, 2014 5:31 pm

OrangeDragon wrote:
LTO wrote:
OrangeDragon wrote:I don't... in the same boat as you sadly.
I don't understand. In what way?
As in I've heard if from a lot of people (thus presumed it to be based on fact... and not unlike a communist government to do) but have no link for verification.
You didn't ask for one. Would you like a quote and a cite?
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Re: You...you...Yuon!

Postby Rain Dog » Wed Jun 04, 2014 5:35 pm

vladimir wrote:So: is it offensive?

I believe it is.

However, I do understand the history, and recently certain parties in Cambodia have unwittingly (disclaimer) appeared to have ...ahem...favoured our eastern neighbours in certain respects.

Over to you.
Regardless of the semantics and historical use of the term, the use of it by the so called opposition party is clearly malevolent, provocative (meant to incite) and totally inappropriate.
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Re: You...you...Yuon!

Postby OrangeDragon » Wed Jun 04, 2014 5:37 pm

LTO wrote:
OrangeDragon wrote:
LTO wrote:
OrangeDragon wrote:I don't... in the same boat as you sadly.
I don't understand. In what way?
As in I've heard if from a lot of people (thus presumed it to be based on fact... and not unlike a communist government to do) but have no link for verification.
You didn't ask for one. Would you like a quote and a cite?
No, well... actually yes. You said "I've heard it before but nobody ever seems to have a reputable source for the claim. Gotta link by chance?" and I was saying "I don't, I'm in the same boat as you" as in I don't have a link, and "I've heard it before but nobody ever seems to have a reputable source for the claim". Though it seems to me to be the common claim, and I'm unsurprised by it.

vladimir wrote:
OrangeDragon wrote:as well as mixing it with english, and because the vietnamese government has pushed HARD that it not be used... which the people will reflect in their reactions. if instead you made some sort of pejorative about khmer however he'd laugh and clap you on the back. the divide between the two is not at all one sided, so whatever one side does the other will quite often disagree with on principle.
Possibly, but two wrongs don't make a right. Anyway, we are discussing whether it's right or wrong, not trying to justify usage.
Right... however the Khmer word for french (which gets applied to all of us really) is barang. If France and Cambodia got into a conflict (during which time there would be a strong nationalism between the people of two), and the one of the results was that France issued a statement against Cambodia for the use of the word Barang instead of the proper French, would it make Cambodians wrong for using it? Even if all French people bought into it fully and became offended that "those ignorant Khmer are insulting us" would it really make it "wrong" for the Khmer to use the word that is appropriate in their language? Based on what I've heard and read, that's essentially what's happened to Youn.

Its their word for Vietnamese people, there was conflict so the term became (in many contexts) polarized as a derogatory term (because during those oppressive times, who would dare use it in any way The Party didn't approve of) and now has been labeled such eternally, in any context by many.
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Re: You...you...Yuon!

Postby OrangeDragon » Wed Jun 04, 2014 5:39 pm

Rain Dog wrote:
vladimir wrote:So: is it offensive?

I believe it is.

However, I do understand the history, and recently certain parties in Cambodia have unwittingly (disclaimer) appeared to have ...ahem...favoured our eastern neighbours in certain respects.

Over to you.
Regardless of the semantics and historical use of the term, the use of it by the so called opposition party is clearly malevolent, provocative (meant to incite) and totally inappropriate.
Here it gets questionable, in my opinion. It goes back to that "we're hearing a tone of another culture in a message passed on by a translator" aspect. We, as non native speakers, can't easily jump to conclusions of intent and context, because the context is rather alien. We can get opinions from other native speakers, as well as translations, but have to be aware those are likely to have bias. Because we see a facial expression/etc while it's being said, our culture divide also opens that up to easy misinterpretation.
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Re: You...you...Yuon!

Postby vladimir » Wed Jun 04, 2014 5:45 pm

I would be willing to bet $100 any Khmer would find an alternative (more polite) word if he were speaking to the Vietnamese ambassador, or if he were attending a function chaired by HE.

Sorry, I'm not convinced.

If anybody has a transcript of a speech by HE/a minster where Vietnamese were referred to as 'Yuon'....I'd be happy to be proved wrong.
Last edited by vladimir on Wed Jun 04, 2014 6:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: You...you...Yuon!

Postby Rain Dog » Wed Jun 04, 2014 5:45 pm

OrangeDragon wrote:
Rain Dog wrote:
vladimir wrote:So: is it offensive?

I believe it is.

However, I do understand the history, and recently certain parties in Cambodia have unwittingly (disclaimer) appeared to have ...ahem...favoured our eastern neighbours in certain respects.

Over to you.
Regardless of the semantics and historical use of the term, the use of it by the so called opposition party is clearly malevolent, provocative (meant to incite) and totally inappropriate.
Here it gets questionable, in my opinion. It goes back to that "we're hearing a tone of another culture in a message passed on by a translator" aspect. We, as non native speakers, can't easily jump to conclusions of intent and context, because the context is rather alien. We can get opinions from other native speakers, as well as translations, but have to be aware those are likely to have bias. Because we see a facial expression/etc while it's being said, our culture divide also opens that up to easy misinterpretation.

Linguistically you are correct. I cannot claim I have taken a census but those ethnic Vietnamese I have talked to most certainly feel that the Political use of the term is an attempt to scapegoat them and incite against them. We never get into do they find the actual term personally offensive or not. As previous posters have suggested it's all about context.
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Re: You...you...Yuon!

Postby LTO » Wed Jun 04, 2014 5:58 pm

OrangeDragon wrote:
LTO wrote:
OrangeDragon wrote:
LTO wrote:
OrangeDragon wrote:I don't... in the same boat as you sadly.
I don't understand. In what way?
As in I've heard if from a lot of people (thus presumed it to be based on fact... and not unlike a communist government to do) but have no link for verification.
You didn't ask for one. Would you like a quote and a cite?
No, well... actually yes. You said "I've heard it before but nobody ever seems to have a reputable source for the claim. Gotta link by chance?" and I was saying "I don't, I'm in the same boat as you" as in I don't have a link, and "I've heard it before but nobody ever seems to have a reputable source for the claim". Though it seems to me to be the common claim, and I'm unsurprised by it.
"Yuon is the name given by Kampuchea's people to the Vietnamese since the epoch of Angkor and it means "savage." The words "Vietnam" and "Vietnamese" are very recent and not often used by Kampuchea's people."
- 'Black Paper: The Strategy of “INDOCHINA FEDERATION” of the Indochinese Communist Party of Ho Chi Minh', Department of Press and Information of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Democratic Kampuchea, September 1978, page 9 via Thion, Serge. Mahder, William. “The Ingratitude of the Crocodiles The 1978 Cambodian Black Paper,” Bulletin of Concerned Asian Scholars, Vol. 12, 1980
We are not in the same boat.
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Re: You...you...Yuon!

Postby OrangeDragon » Wed Jun 04, 2014 6:54 pm

I thought we were speaking on the Vietnamese gov't declaration that they would only be called Vietnamese...
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Re: You...you...Yuon!

Postby OrangeDragon » Wed Jun 04, 2014 6:58 pm

vladimir wrote:I would be willing to bet $100 any Khmer would find an alternative (more polite) word if he were speaking to the Vietnamese ambassador, or if he were attending a function chaired by HE.

Sorry, I'm not convinced.

If anybody has a transcript of a speech by HE/a minster where Vietnamese were referred to as 'Yuon'....I'd be happy to be proved wrong.
Do you mean a well educated one, or a simple provincial rice farmer (who are the people they are speaking TOO when they use the word)? Talking down to your audience, in terms they can understand, is not unheard of. And a lot of Khmer in the provinces have a bit of a struggle understanding even common Phnom Penh usage of the language. My wife will often repeat herself twice (when out there) and then say it again differently before they get what she's asking. Constituents who can't understand your campaign speech would be a problem. Even in the US most politicians tone down their accents and local phrases (unless it's some sort of gimmick phrase) to speak to the general populace so that they're well understood.


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