Ali Baba,
I come from country where the death penalty was abolished a long time ago and is considered atrocious. There is pretty much wide much agreement around the world with some sad and notable exceptions on that point. Thus, accusing posters to be redneck and then agreeing on the death penalty is a contradiction in most of the world (I am not taking a go a t you, be sure). I mentioned this because it shows to me how confused the professions of concern for humanity by some are.

For our specialists:
I m glad to learn more about history. Such nuggets of understanding and knowledge are rare:
"the KR were just a bunch of badasses guerrillas hiding in the jungle before Sihanouk hired them as useful idiots (and viceversa)."
Not that I would agree or any professional historian. Never let the facts get in the way of a good argument......
Do some reading on the KR and its history.


"the americans are doing the same shit as the KR but nobody dare to complain"
Outright slander. There are many actions by the US that need to be criticized and more. Maybe you do not know what the KR did.

"the russians and chinese medias fully support my stances on this and so many other topics related to KR, UN, US/NATO"

i have not the slightest doubt about Chinese "media" as you prefer to call them. I especially love their long documentaries on how the PRC sold out the Thai communist party and had them massacred. Interesting where those celebrations of KR-PRC economic relations. The successful rice exports to the PRC when famine was killing off the Cambodian population. Yes, they got some not so high-tech in return. Those tanks were badly needed to massacre oppositional KR cadres and then for the attack on Vietnam.
I also look forward to read their multi-volume edition of PRC embassy reports from PP for the years 1975-1978.

You are sadly ill-informed, you lack comprehensive of international legal standards, you do not have the tools to analyze information, and hide your ignorance behind slang and attacks when your evasive talk hits ground.

FC:
You miss a key point. Prosecution of crimes against humanity breaks national law once it is determined that national government fail to prosecute. The cases for Africa are good examples. Why is this so? Very simple in this case crimes against humanity are not solely crimes against the Cambodian population or the Khmers in general. The blame the court for the consequences of the unwillingness of the current Cambodian government is unfair. With all its problems, the verdict was a huge success and the reactions by these would-be-again perpetrators in and around Anlong Veng show that the message has been understood and was ill-received. That the big boss wants to get rid of the tribunal is another indicator of success and importance. If it would be just a money maker these people would be very comfortable. They are not and they probably know why.

If the trial was any good at determining truth....

Then the good news of truth would be all around. The forums
would all know. I have been on the forums but have not heard
any truths of the trial. And that is what one would expect of a trial.
The trial of the murdering runner is a good example. He killed her
because she was leaving him. The trial was not about motive.
Important to the truth, but not a factor in this trial.

Tuk tuk drivers would have heard the truth. What does yours say ?

What good was a trial that did not want truth ?

Pizzalover, it's Sihanouk himself who admitted having been a "useful idiot" of the chinese while he pretended to use the KR in the same way ... source : "My war with the CIA" (1973) and his own biography and the many books of Chandler, Short, Kiernan, etc

on the US : 2-3 million vietnamese died during the "american war" which is more or less the same number of khmer who died because of the KR, who's to blame, and why the US should be forgiven ? once again, when will we ever see people like Kissinger or McNamara being trialed for their crimes in Indochina and elsewhere ? i mean, even McNamara in his book "In retrospect" admits the situation in indochina got out of hand and produced horrible crimes against civilians.

the chinese were quite critical of the KR actually, Zhou Enlai in particular was not happy of their foreign policy against Vietnam and their hardcore policies on forced labour for anyone without a peasant background as you can read in any biography of Zhou Enlai.

the Thai communists never had a realistic chance to succeed while the Indonesian communists could win but decided to shoot themselves in the foot alienating their own political base and allies.

.. but of course i may sound ill informed to anyone who's been spoon fed the US version of "history" since birth.

as for the actual khmer elite not being happy of the KR trial : yes and no, remember that HE never joined the KR, he joined the Royalists, and when later it became clear the army was in fact ruled by the communist party of kampuchea he had nowhere to escape, until he was forced to escape to vietnam along with Heng Samrin and his group .. it's ludicrous that so many here claim he was "a KR from the start" and that this tribunal will in one way or another keep him by the balls for having been a KR in the past, it's total BS, the only ones believing this shit are the crooks backing and supporting Sam Rainsy.

Drifter wrote:
as for the actual khmer elite not being happy of the KR trial : yes and no, remember that HE never joined the KR, he joined the Royalists, and when later it became clear the army was in fact ruled by the communist party of kampuchea he had nowhere to escape, until he was forced to escape to vietnam along with Heng Samrin and his group .. it's ludicrous that so many here claim he was "a KR from the start" and that this tribunal will in one way or another keep him by the balls for having been a KR in the past, it's total BS, the only ones believing this shit are the crooks backing and supporting Sam Rainsy.

So? It doesn't make him any less guilty.

HE came to power with the Khmer Rouge and served as a Battalion Commander in the Eastern Region of Democratic Kampuchea (the state name during the Khmer rouge government). In 1977 during internal purges of the Khmer Rouge regime, HE and his battalion cadres fled to Vietnam. HE became one of the leaders of the rebel army and government that the Vietnamese government sponsored when they prepared to invade Cambodia. When the Khmer Rouge regime was overthrown, HE was appointed Deputy Prime Minister and Foreign Minister of the Vietnamese-installed People's Republic of Kampuchea/State of Cambodia (PRK/SOC) in 1979.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hun_Sen

The HE government has done everything it could do to tie the hands of the Khmer Rouge Tribunal, and to prevent the full and complete investigation and prosecution of the Khmer Rouge crimes, motivated by the reality that a number of current high-level officials, including Foreign Minister Hor Namhong, are alleged to have been closely involved with the genocide...

http://www.eurasiareview.com/14082014-k ... hort-oped/

Born in 1952, HE joined the Communist Party in the late 1960s and, for a time, was a member of the Khmer Rouge. He has denied accusations that he was once a top official within the movement, saying he was only an ordinary soldier.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-pacific-13006542

Pizzalover wrote:Ali Baba,
I come from country where the death penalty was abolished a long time ago and is considered atrocious. There is pretty much wide much agreement around the world with some sad and notable exceptions on that point. Thus, accusing posters to be redneck and then agreeing on the death penalty is a contradiction in most of the world (I am not taking a go a t you, be sure). I mentioned this because it shows to me how confused the professions of concern for humanity by some are.

I'm familiar with anti-death penalty opinions but I don't see what this has to do with rednecks. Japan still practices the death penalty despite the lack of white farmers. Singapore is a city state that has mandatory death sentences for drug importers. Where do rednecks figure into capital punishment?
__________

For those who are interested Henry Kissinger's crimes, including the bombing of Cambodia, are well documented. Search for Henry Kissinger war crimes and you'll find plenty of material and torrents.

Flying Chicken,

we're not discussing here if HE is good or bad, in any case as bad as he is i fully support him because cambodia needs a son of bitch like him in this historical moment.

wikipedia : wrong ! he never "came to power" with the KR, he just was promoted as commander, big difference.

boycotting the tribunal : because it's a farse and a waste of money, and yes because they know the US would use to keep the government by the balls just as they keep painting cambodia as hell on heart on medias with the foreign NGOs and giving cambo a terrible reputation.

BBC : wrong again, he never joined the communist party in the 60's nor during the civil war, he was a royalist !

I really do not see any connection with a bombing before 1973 and a murder in post 1975 Cambodia. The connection has to be a real one and not constructed. Is this so difficult to understand. We talk about murder trials and ultimately rather simple straight forward aspects like chain of command etc.
The fact that these criminals and hopefully more get what they deserve is positive. To doubt that with reference to general observations about China, the US etc is pointless.
The energy expended by some (i m not talking about this forum) to discredit the trials shows that they are relevant beyond the purely legal aspects. Nobody in power would waste a second about the story unless they feel uncomfortable.

Deploring that other crimes, including crimes against humanity and war crimes, are not prosecuted cannot mean that no prosecution at all should take place. The only hope to go forward are the current trials and that they development will further stabilize international and serve as a deterrent.

About the Thai communist party. They might have had no chance, perhaps, but does that make their betrayal and slaughter any less repulsive?

The PRC was so uncomfortable about the KR attack on Vietnam that they joined in the party themselves. They started an unprovoked war. Too bad for them that the Vietnamese were superior. As that did not work out, well, what can you do? You turn the area into a killing field once more. THis time PRC and CIA hand in hand. I have this on authority from a retired colonel of the Thai army. Nice details. Any met the KR with AK47s in the Dong Muang VIP lounge in the 90s. My friends did. My Khmer friends in Thailand have a lot to say about this. In other words, the PRC is last source of reliable info.

ali baba wrote:

Pizzalover wrote:Ali Baba,
I come from country where the death penalty was abolished a long time ago and is considered atrocious. There is pretty much wide much agreement around the world with some sad and notable exceptions on that point. Thus, accusing posters to be redneck and then agreeing on the death penalty is a contradiction in most of the world (I am not taking a go a t you, be sure). I mentioned this because it shows to me how confused the professions of concern for humanity by some are.

I'm familiar with anti-death penalty opinions but I don't see what this has to do with rednecks. Japan still practices the death penalty despite the lack of white farmers. Singapore is a city state that has mandatory death sentences for drug importers. Where do rednecks figure into capital punishment?
__________

For those who are interested Henry Kissinger's crimes, including the bombing of Cambodia, are well documented. Search for Henry Kissinger war crimes and you'll find plenty of material and torrents.

You don't have to be white to be a redneck, plenty of them here in China




2

often disparaging : a person whose behavior and opinions are similar to those attributed to rednecks

redneck= opposite of hippie

Pizzalover wrote:I really do not see any connection with a bombing before 1973 and a murder in post 1975 Cambodia. The connection has to be a real one and not constructed. Is this so difficult to understand. We talk about murder trials and ultimately rather simple straight forward aspects like chain of command etc.
The fact that these criminals and hopefully more get what they deserve is positive. To doubt that with reference to general observations about China, the US etc is pointless.
The energy expended by some (i m not talking about this forum) to discredit the trials shows that they are relevant beyond the purely legal aspects. Nobody in power would waste a second about the story unless they feel uncomfortable.

Deploring that other crimes, including crimes against humanity and war crimes, are not prosecuted cannot mean that no prosecution at all should take place. The only hope to go forward are the current trials and that they development will further stabilize international and serve as a deterrent.

About the Thai communist party. They might have had no chance, perhaps, but does that make their betrayal and slaughter any less repulsive?

The PRC was so uncomfortable about the KR attack on Vietnam that they joined in the party themselves. They started an unprovoked war. Too bad for them that the Vietnamese were superior. As that did not work out, well, what can you do? You turn the area into a killing field once more. THis time PRC and CIA hand in hand. I have this on authority from a retired colonel of the Thai army. Nice details. Any met the KR with AK47s in the Dong Muang VIP lounge in the 90s. My friends did. My Khmer friends in Thailand have a lot to say about this. In other words, the PRC is last source of reliable info.

Sihanouk tried all he could to keep cambodia neutral but for months the americans started bombing the Ho Chi Minh Trail and eastern cambodia anyway, this was an aggression on a sovereign country and the US never declared war on cambodia.

and it's nothing new, the americans are bombing Pakistan with drones even if they're not technically at war with Pakistan, it's just business as usual as long as the target country doesn't have an air force big enough to counterattack.

de facto, the US claim to have the god given right to bomb any country in the world as much as they please with the only exception of Russia and China for obvious reasons.

you see no connections ? that look again, and again, and make 2+2, and if you still see nothing wrong well maybe you're the problem.

Thai communists : seriously, nobody ever gave a shit about them ... Mao tried in vain to export maoist all around SE Asia but he was aware they had not many chance to succeed, not to mention that guerrilla wars are designed to go on and on for decades, if they win they do it for attrition and never by brute force alone and this takes time, looong time.

the Thais had neither time nor enough popular support nor enough economic and military backing, it was obvious from the start that in the very best scenario they could just grab a small region for themselves but never ever the entire country, same thing happened in Nepal and India by the way and the situation there (Bihar for instance) is still unstable after decades.

trials as deterrent : it's not working, see by yourself how many wars erupted in the last few years ! and most of them have been ignited by the US/NATO and their Gulf allies, the same guys that love making trials against their former enemies or former allies.

PRC : the PRC radically changed its foreign policy after the death of Mao.

they invaded northern vietnam just to make a quick punishing mission, that's why they stopped at the outskirts of Hanoi rather than destroying the capital and taking over North Vietnam, which they could have done easily but this would have meant full scale war with Russia !

Yes, PRC and CIA working together against Vietnam, exactly, as they both shared an anti-russian foreign policy, which didn't last long anyway.

and stop seeing the world in black and white claiming "you can't trust the chinese" or whatever ... have you actually lived in china ? i do and the biggest pile of shit propaganda about china always comes from the western medias especially regarding Tibet and Xinjiang ! the chinese are not saints but i've witnessed how much the reality of china is totally distorted and manipulated on the non-chinese medias often by people who've never ever set foot in china !

Ok, drifter I got it. You have no arguments left about the trials. You do not address my arguments about the trials but try to change the conversation. Pretty much like deniers use to do. I guess that's what you are. You are fully in line with Chinese propaganda that combats any potential limitation to their imperialism and terrorist form of government.

Now with your remarks on Tibet you put yourself solidly on a map. Your critical position is just a cover-up. The degree of your opportunism is amazing. But that's what they possibly have taught you there. Defending a regime that kills people by the thousands each year. No wonder you cant stand the concept of transnational justice. Talking about Human Rights and praising China? You are bad joke. Sorry that I am now addressing you as a person but the degree of your dishonesty simply is too disgusting.

Please, please, stay out of matter of human rights as long as you celebrate your hangmen. And, i forgot, take some history 101, and maybe start reading some peer-reviewed material. With your current standards, you won't make it to sophomore. At least not if I am on the faculty. In other words: shut up boy.