There was this thread on work permits for retirees on that other board, which always somehow got sidetracked because of hearsay, assumptions, conjecture, inferences, interpretations by especially one knucklehead, etc, but many of those posts were lacking in one thing - facts. Some posters on that board have an annoying way of digressing from the issue proper.

There were only a few posts that contributed something factual for retired/self-employed people who are really uncertain what to expect and what to do, in case they were approached by the authorities about their stay/life in Cambodia. Unfortunately, those were mostly the ones that had a job with a company/NGO, or similar, which is not the issue that was raised initially. I am posting on this board as that other forum a lot of times is not conducive to real discussions. Oftentimes, they slip into personal attacks (which I unfortunately did too in this case); that’s no help for those who seek real information.

This lengthy post is supposed to shed some light on the issue and hopefully provide some insight into the problem. I can understand that especially people with skimpy retirement benefits are even afraid of what awaits them.

This is my personal experience in Sihanoukville, which may not apply to other cities/regions, as in Cambodia practices and interpretations of the law are fluid (that’s why the facts are ‘sort of’).

When the news and the rumor about enforcement of the requirement for work permits started I checked the appropriate code online and found that I was not affected. Here are the relevant sections of the law:

Quote
Article 3
"Workers", in the sense of this law, are every person of all sex and nationality, who has signed an employment contract in return for remuneration, under the direction and management of another person, whether that person is a natural person or legal entity, public or private. To clearly determine the characteristics of a worker, one shall not take into account of neither the jurisdictional status of the employer nor that of the worker, as well as the amount of remuneration.


Article 5:
"Employees or helpers" are those who are contracted to assist any person in return for remuneration, but who do not perform manual labor fully or who do so incidentally.

Article 6: "Laborers" are those workers who are not household servants or employees, namely those who perform mostly manual labor in return for remuneration, under the direction of the employer or his representative. The status of laborer is independent of the method of remuneration; it is determined exclusively by the nature of the work.

Article 261:
No foreigner can work unless he possesses a work permit and an employment card issued by the Ministry in Charge of Labor. These foreigners must also meet the following conditions :
Employers must beforehand have a legal work permit to work in the Kingdom of Cambodia;
These foreigners must have legally entered the Kingdom of Cambodia;
These foreigners must possess a valid passport;
These foreigners must possess a valid residency permit;
These foreigners must be fit for their job and have no contagious diseases.
These conditions must be determined by a Prakas (ministerial order) from the Ministry of Health with the approval of the Ministry in Charge of Labor.

The work permit is valid for one year and may be extended as long as the validity of extension does not exceed the fixed period in the residency permit of the person in question.
Unquote

My status is a combination of several definitions:
First, in general, I am an investor in this country - with a considerable investment at that;
Second, in one investment my wife and I are co-owners of a rubber plantation, I don’t work there at all; I receive a monthly dividend; my name is on the hard title as well.
Third, I am an investor in a small hotel, which, officially, my wife owns and runs; we also employ a junior manager; naturally, I help out and oversee my investment; my name does not appear on any documents relating to the hotel. I do not draw a salary or compensation whatsoever from that hotel.
Fourth, I am retired and receive monthly retirement benefits.

Notwithstanding the one-year validity of the visa I possess an indefinite residency permit from my local Sangkat.

Consequently, reading the above articles of the labor law I do not legally fall under the requirement for a work permit; but I certainly wouldn’t need to skirt paying a few hundred dollars.

When the officials from the Ministry of the Interior (immigration police) and the Ministry of Labor made their rounds of all hotels and restaurants (and possibly other businesses as well) they also came round our hotel. I was not at the hotel when they came. They asked the receptionist on duty whether there were any foreign employees working there. The staff told them no, but the owner is a foreigner. They then asked to meet me the next day, which I did.

The first thing they wanted to see was my passport and visa. My E-visa expires in Dec. but I also had 3 previous visas as extensions, each referencing the original one. In fact, I had three more in an expired passport but the sequence was interrupted as I had the last one of those lapse due to extensive overseas travel.

The officials showed me a directive signed by both Ministries that they are authorized to check all businesses and that any foreigner staying in Cambodia on the so-called business visa (E-category) falls under provisions of the Labor Law and thus is required to obtain a work permit. Since this is a business visa the inference is that you do business here, that is, you somehow work and need that WP.

We discussed my status in the various categories at length as I pointed out the a.m. articles. They agreed that the Labor Law is ambiguous and does not really address many other categories under which a foreigner could be in Cambodia. We also agreed that this is something the legislature failed to consider, which they hopefully would rectify in the near future.

However, they insisted that I need to obtain a work permit simply based on the fact that I have been here on an E-visa. That mandate was clearly stated in their directive. We read it ourselves. The discussion was held in a very friendly fashion which was helped by the fact that I speak passable Khmer and Cambodians always appreciate when a foreigner goes to the trouble of learning their difficult language. At no point did they say I needed to get that WP because I am working in any capacity in Cambodia whatsoever. When they left I gave them a large tip , there were 5 of them after all. Other than that I did not pay them anything, e. g. a penalty which under different circumstances would have been due.

The following week I proceeded to the local office of the MoL and applied for the WP. The lady in charge put all my information down. We had a brief discussion similar to the one with the previous officials. Since work permits officially require an employer she used the hotel but paradoxically entered ‘Retired’ under ‘Function’. From this alone you can see how equivocal that whole WP issue is. The work book arrived four months later; I will also be issued a quota card, which is the official work permit, similar to an ID card. This one hasn’t arrived yet. As one can see from this, the confusion about the work permit extends from the top (between the two ministries) all the way down to the enforcement level. In the end I paid $400 altogether, $100 for each year that I have had E-visas for, including 2015. I must renew it in November.

By definition, I would be a retiree in a Western country who at the same time is a self-employed businessman owing to the fact that I am an investor, whether I was working or not. The big difference, of course, is that I would not need a work permit; the tax laws would apply most of all. Most Western countries also issue work visas; no separate work permit is required (most EU countries); some countries issue investors’ visa, again no separate work permit required (the U. S. for one). But what applies there should not be taken as a basis for understanding what’s required here.

So the way I read it in most instances it will work like this:
1. If you are a business owner, the business is not incorporated, e. g. you got a business license and any other permit required like a tourism license, and you work in the business, you are a self-employed businessman and will need a work book/permit.
2. If you are an investor and don’t work at all you will still need a WP at the present time based on the E-visa.
3. If you are a business owner, your business is incorporated, and you are an officer of the company, you will need a WP.
4. If you are a consultant of some sort (I was that too at one time), you are self-employed and work, you will need a WP.
5. If you are retired and don’t work at all, but are here on an E-visa, you will need a WP. The reasoning behind this is very simple (also see above). You might not work right now but can take up a job at any given time here since you are not here for just a month or two. I am the best example. I am retired but I am self-employed at the same time. So any retiree could do this without informing the authorities. The only thing that baffles me is what the MoL would put in your workbook as employer. It was easy in my case.

The question for retirees is how would the authorities find out about you? I have no idea whether they would enlist the help of the local Sangkat. I read that there are 80,000 foreigners living here legally, enough reason for the government to make an extra effort to find out what all these foreigners do here and put some money into their state coffers. I myself do believe that they will use the Sangkat eventually. The longer you have lived here the greater the risk that the more expensive it might get when they do find out, if ever. If you are really concerned about this you might want to contact an attorney. One of the best is the Sciaroni law office. They know their mettle.

phuketrichard wrote:Easy, when and if immigration communicates with the Labor office, as when u apply for ur 1 year extension.......
Immigration notifies labor and ur caught....

There is no way in hell immigration are going to do what is essentially an MLVT function without a deal.

I suspect this will end with the sangkat checking on residents and reporting (for a cut), and MLVT reps visiting businesses.

After another year or so, immigration will simply not issue you with a 1-year visa unless you produce a WP first. They will have to have a cross-reference on the visa which lists your WP number.

Have fun.

Anybody can apply for it themselves, e. g. self-employed people such as consultants. The Khmertimes is absolutely unreliable when quoting officials. It is not sure whether that spokesman indeed said those words. (I know of another case where they quoted an official who told us he never said such a thing.) And, to my knowledge, there is no immigration visa, that is for permanent immigration. There are only two categories available for entry (excepting diplomats, aid organizations, etc.) that is the so-called tourist visa and the business visa. I inquired about this issue at the Immigration Department the last time I extended my business visa. Plus the directive clearly stated everybody holding this E-visa must get a WP. There are contradictions all over the place. Chinese, Koreans, Taiwanese, Vietnamese, Thais certainly constitute the bulk of that 80,000.

What we can expect is another thing altogether. I was talking about the now. And I believe they will tie the business visa to a WP in a not too distant future. And retirees will just have to wait until they create a special visa for them. But for now, IMO they will have to sit tight and hope that they can hold out without any complications until that day comes. Nobody gets arrested for this; if they catch you you will have to pay a fine; if not they will keep your passport (this was done in my presence to another individual). Then you have a month to apply.

I will go with Vlad on this. There is a lot of money to be made here.

Hey rubberbaron, want to set up a WP helper agency?

Just adding an additional info. Khmers also need a work permit as well. Cost around 3 dollars and its good for life.

Thanks for taking the time to post this RB.
Do you think the need for a work permit also applies if you leave the country on a regular basis ? ie; if your "business" visas are always less than one year and never back to back.

The way things stand at the moment - from what I understand - is that anyone who wants to come to Cambodia for 3 months without leaving the country needs to get a "business" visa, and will therefore in theory need a WP ? In reality, I doubt the authorities would bother with anything less than back to back 1 year visas, but who knows ?

Username Taken wrote: I want residency in order to support my kids.

That would be a human right. Surely they have never thought about this. What do you expect ?

I had the same experience with the immigration guys in SHV, it had obviously been thirsty work chasing up illegal immigrants so I gave them money for some tea and biscuits but if you are on an E visa you need a WP, there's no exceptions.