TheGrinchSR wrote:I'm being contentious mainly because you're full of shit. You keep pushing your agenda when the reality doesn't match that agenda. I don't really give a monkey's about your situation in Sihanoukville... I care about what's really going on for everyone.

You can cling to 25,000 out of 80,000 as a crackdown (which actually seems pretty poor if they were visiting places of employment but that's another story) but if that's only in workplaces and mainly Chinese and Koreans, and it appears that it is - then it's not relevant to the majority of CEO posters - no matter what you think and keep pushing.

What is it that makes it appear to you that it is mostly Koreans and Chinese? Was there something in the news? I don't know the nationalities of the 25,000 but i wouldn't think most Koreans and Chinese are in the "education, tourism, civil society" sectors like the 25,000. Also, back in the days before this recent crackdown on WPs, the only ones that had work permits were the non-VN Asians working here, mostly factory management and workers. Not to say that most had their WPs, but if anybody did, they did. It was the barang that didn't.

LTO wrote:

TheGrinchSR wrote:I'm being contentious mainly because you're full of shit. You keep pushing your agenda when the reality doesn't match that agenda. I don't really give a monkey's about your situation in Sihanoukville... I care about what's really going on for everyone.

You can cling to 25,000 out of 80,000 as a crackdown (which actually seems pretty poor if they were visiting places of employment but that's another story) but if that's only in workplaces and mainly Chinese and Koreans, and it appears that it is - then it's not relevant to the majority of CEO posters - no matter what you think and keep pushing.

What is it that makes it appear to you that it is mostly Koreans and Chinese? Was there something in the news? I don't know the nationalities of the 25,000 but i wouldn't think most Koreans and Chinese are in the "education, tourism, civil society" sectors like the 25,000. Also, back in the days before this recent crackdown on WPs, the only ones that had work permits were the non-VN Asians working here, mostly factory management and workers. Not to say that most had their WPs, but if anybody did, they did. It was the barang that didn't.

The entire crackdown was aimed at Chinese and Korean factory workers. Those two countries, in particular, have been building factories here to take advantage of the least developed nation tax breaks on exports and then shipping in their own workers to staff them. The crackdown was intended to ensure that those companies were within their 1:10 ratios and that their employees had work-permits because in essence they were stealing jobs from locals.

That's a pretty good reason for a crackdown. It is strangely rational compared to "we're just going to bust everyone we can". The Western community of expats here is pretty small all told compared to Asian expats. By and large most Westerners are in NGOs, schools or have their own small businesses - all of these things tend to contribute to Cambodia (alright - I know I'm pushing it with English teachers but... the principle is sound from a high-level management point of view); they're a low priority to deal with because they aren't costing Cambodians work.

The only reason Westerners got caught up in this at all - was unelected "representatives" and visa/work-permit agents heading to the ministry to demand "something be done, so we can all be legal". Though given nobody has a residency permit - no-one is legal in the eyes of the actual law anyway.

So, the local authorities duly obliged and in Sihanoukville where people made the most noise (go back and review the Facebook expat groups to see this) - the most action has been taken (particularly as no Sihanoukville official in history has ever turned down the opportunity to make a few extra bucks). But even there, there is no door-to-door residential crackdown. Wandering round businesses makes sense because then you have at least a strong correlation with "working"; knocking on house doors... not so much.

Here in Siem Reap, a chap called Frank Thomas elected himself an "Ambassador to the Governor" - he got short shrift from the community and no longer fills that role nor does anyone else. We've had some enforcement at places of work and two people who claim to have been visited at home - though in both of those cases, they run businesses from home and the kinds of business that it would be impossible to disguise (e.g. a yard full of stock that only a blind man could miss).

I don't mind a rational discussion on work permits at all. I object to the discussions which turn into lectures of "everyone with an E-visa needs a work permit" when all the available evidence suggests that they do not - unless they are in the wrong place at the wrong time.

TheGrinchSR wrote:The entire crackdown was aimed at Chinese and Korean factory workers. .

Do you have some source for that or is that just another theory? Lots of theories out there.

TheGrinchSR wrote:The only reason Westerners got caught up in this at all - was unelected "representatives" and visa/work-permit agents heading to the ministry to demand "something be done, so we can all be legal".

Again, is that just your theory? Doesn't sound very likely. There has been an across the board regulatory crackdown, including work permits, sparked by the election and going on in earnest for a year. Cambodia is getting real. This is not because of some provincial facebook group of gossipy expats.

TheGrinchSR wrote:I don't mind a rational discussion on work permits at all. I object to the discussions which turn into lectures of "everyone with an E-visa needs a work permit" when all the available evidence suggests that they do not - unless they are in the wrong place at the wrong time.

See:

According to Lt. Gen. Leakna, visa renewals for long-term residents will also be affected. He said new arrivals to Cambodia can acquire a one-month business visa then apply for a one-year extension.
“But after one year, if you can’t find a job, you have to go out of Cambodia and cannot extend more,” he said.

https://www.cambodiadaily.com/news/govt ... eek-75520/

I don't think they have that part worked out yet though i suspect, ultimately, there will be a new type of visa issued for long term stay (retirement or something like that) and E-type visas, i.e. Business visas, will be for people who work. If that is the case, I guess the question is whether this will be done seamlessly or there will be some gap between E visas becoming a problem and the issuance of the new type of visa.

LTO wrote:

TheGrinchSR wrote:The entire crackdown was aimed at Chinese and Korean factory workers. .

Do you have some source for that or is that just another theory? Lots of theories out there. I

TheGrinchSR wrote:The only reason Westerners got caught up in this at all - was unelected "representatives" and visa/work-permit agents heading to the ministry to demand "something be done, so we can all be legal".

Again, is that just your theory? Doesn't sound very likely. There has been an across the board regulatory crackdown, including work permits, sparked by the election and going on in earnest for a year. Cambodia is getting real. This is not because of some provincial facebook group of gossipy expats.

TheGrinchSR wrote:I don't mind a rational discussion on work permits at all. I object to the discussions which turn into lectures of "everyone with an E-visa needs a work permit" when all the available evidence suggests that they do not - unless they are in the wrong place at the wrong time.

See:

According to Lt. Gen. Leakna, visa renewals for long-term residents will also be affected. He said new arrivals to Cambodia can acquire a one-month business visa then apply for a one-year extension.
“But after one year, if you can’t find a job, you have to go out of Cambodia and cannot extend more,” he said.

https://www.cambodiadaily.com/news/govt ... eek-75520/

1. I'm not going to spend hours searching the net for the original source - just go back to late 2014 when the crackdowns were announced the government was explicit about this.
2. There has not been an across the board crackdown - that crackdown exists only in the minds of a group of shrill expats as evidenced by testimony from expats who have not been asked about work permits. The "crackdown" on Western businesses followed the march of expats to local authorities demanding to be included - check the timing of meetings held with local authorities (posted in Facebook expat groups) and then the crackdowns. This was incredibly evident from the start of this.
3. Lt. Gen in Cambodia = dogsbody anywhere else in the world. Would you listen to a minor adminstrator as an authoritative source anywhere else on the planet? Can you find a single shred of evidence that his prediction has come true? No? No surprises there either.

Groupthink is all that has been going on here. Expats here have too much time on their hands and not enough common sense. Despite the overwhelming majority of expats not having work permits... the bleating continues.

TheGrinchSR wrote:

LTO wrote:

TheGrinchSR wrote:The entire crackdown was aimed at Chinese and Korean factory workers. .

Do you have some source for that or is that just another theory? Lots of theories out there. I

TheGrinchSR wrote:The only reason Westerners got caught up in this at all - was unelected "representatives" and visa/work-permit agents heading to the ministry to demand "something be done, so we can all be legal".

Again, is that just your theory? Doesn't sound very likely. There has been an across the board regulatory crackdown, including work permits, sparked by the election and going on in earnest for a year. Cambodia is getting real. This is not because of some provincial facebook group of gossipy expats.

TheGrinchSR wrote:I don't mind a rational discussion on work permits at all. I object to the discussions which turn into lectures of "everyone with an E-visa needs a work permit" when all the available evidence suggests that they do not - unless they are in the wrong place at the wrong time.

See:

According to Lt. Gen. Leakna, visa renewals for long-term residents will also be affected. He said new arrivals to Cambodia can acquire a one-month business visa then apply for a one-year extension.
“But after one year, if you can’t find a job, you have to go out of Cambodia and cannot extend more,” he said.

https://www.cambodiadaily.com/news/govt ... eek-75520/

1. I'm not going to spend hours searching the net for the original source - just go back to late 2014 when the crackdowns were announced the government was explicit about this.
2. There has not been an across the board crackdown - that crackdown exists only in the minds of a group of shrill expats as evidenced by testimony from expats who have not been asked about work permits. The "crackdown" on Western businesses followed the march of expats to local authorities demanding to be included - check the timing of meetings held with local authorities (posted in Facebook expat groups) and then the crackdowns. This was incredibly evident from the start of this.
3. Lt. Gen in Cambodia = dogsbody anywhere else in the world. Would you listen to a minor adminstrator as an authoritative source anywhere else on the planet? Can you find a single shred of evidence that his prediction has come true? No? No surprises there either.

Groupthink is all that has been going on here. Expats here have too much time on their hands and not enough common sense. Despite the overwhelming majority of expats not having work permits... the bleating continues.

1. No source = so much hot air, not that I don't also engage in occasional theorizing. Still, it's just theorizing. And as I pointed out, the sectors that have been hit by the work permit crackdown over the last 7 months (i.e. education, tourism and civil society) are not sectors in which most Chinese and Koreans work. Those sectors are barang country.
2. The regulatory crackdown is much wider than just work permits. Your focus is too narrow.
3. Now you are looking kind of desperate. Lt. Gen. Leakna is the deputy director of the Ministry of Interior's immigration department, i.e. the department responsible for issuing E visa renewals.

rb tells you 25,000 people have applied for WPs this year. You say 'bullshit.' I give you the government announcement. You say, 'well, those are a different kind of people.' You say 'there is no evidence that everyone with an E-visa needs a work permit.' I give you a quote from the government official in the relevant department saying that 'everyone with an E-visa needs a work permit.' You say 'he's a dogbody that doesn't know what he is talking about.' This is the ad hoc reasoning of the faithful.

You look like somebody who really wants his theory to be true and will simply close his eyes to anything that suggests the contrary. You seem to be dogmatically attached to it, when in fact it's only a theory with no conclusive or even particularly persuasive evidence. And you are unwilling to consider any evidence to the contrary, rejecting it out-of-hand, even if all it does is raise uncertainty. It would seem that you are the one making proclamations and lecturing, not only without any conclusive evidence to support his conclusions, but with his eye's firmly shut to any evidence suggesting otherwise.

Personally, I don't think we know what is really happening, or what will happen next, though some scenarios are more likely than others. I don't think that they do either. But I am willing to look at all the hard information and evidence we have to date and see what we can divine from it. I do not cherry pick from the evidence and ignore what I don't like to support some particular pre-conceived conclusion.

So, in summary:

1. WAIT, when they come, negotiate, and pay what they insist on.

Lot of talk to get to that point.

vladimir wrote:So, in summary:

1. WAIT, when they come, negotiate, and pay what they insist on.

Lot of talk to get to that point.

Or perhaps tell them that, just as soon as your residency card is issued ,you will be rushing down to the MOL.