Was Marx right?

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vladimir
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Re: Was Marx right?

Post by vladimir »

Regarding hat in hand, how many (western) countries in Europe, haven't gone hat in hand to borrow cash?

Portugal broke, Spain screwed, Ireland dodgy, Australia's budget is up the creek, does Belgium even have a government, Eurozone is trashed, Merkel is giving the orders, but yes, everything is cozy? Jeez.
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Rain Dog
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Re: Was Marx right?

Post by Rain Dog »

StroppyChops wrote:
vladimir wrote:Forget for a minute that communism has largely failed in practice, so many other respectable and not-so-respectable doctrines - Christianity and capitalism respectively - have also failed if we look at the results: from wiki:
Spoiler:
Karl Marx[note 1] (/mɑrks/;[4] German pronunciation: [ˈkaɐ̯l ˈmaɐ̯ks]; 5 May 1818 – 14 March 1883) was a German philosopher, economist, sociologist, journalist, and revolutionary socialist. Marx's work in economics laid the basis for much of the current understanding of labour and its relation to capital, and subsequent economic thought.[5][6][7][8] He published numerous books during his lifetime, the most notable being The Communist Manifesto (1848) and Das Kapital (1867–1894).

Born into a wealthy middle-class family in Trier in the Prussian Rhineland, Marx studied at the Universities of Bonn and Berlin where he became interested in the philosophical ideas of the Young Hegelians. After his studies he wrote for Rheinische Zeitung, a radical newspaper in Cologne, and began to work out the theory of the materialist conception of history. He moved to Paris in 1843, where he began writing for other radical newspapers and met Friedrich Engels, who would become his lifelong friend and collaborator. In 1849 he was exiled and moved to London together with his wife and children, where he continued writing and formulating his theories about social and economic activity. He also campaigned for socialism and became a significant figure in the International Workingmen's Association.

Marx's theories about society, economics and politics—the collective understanding of which is known as Marxism—hold that human societies progress through class struggle: a conflict between an ownership class that controls production and a dispossessed labouring class that provides the labour for production. States, Marx believed, were run on behalf of the ruling class and in their interest while representing it as the common interest of all;[9] and he predicted that, like previous socioeconomic systems, capitalism produced internal tensions which would lead to its self-destruction and replacement by a new system: socialism. He argued that class antagonisms under capitalism between the bourgeoisie and proletariat would eventuate in the working class' conquest of political power and eventually establish a classless society, communism, a society governed by a free association of producers.[10][11] Marx actively fought for its implementation, arguing that the working class should carry out organised revolutionary action to topple capitalism and bring about socio-economic change.[12]

Both lauded and criticized, Marx has been described as one of the most influential figures in human history.[13] Many intellectuals, labour unions and political parties worldwide have been influenced by Marx's ideas, with many variations on his groundwork. Marx is typically cited, with Émile Durkheim and Max Weber, as one of the three principal architects of modern social science.[14] End.

1. Was Marx right in his analysis of society?

2. What is the alternative to unfettered capitalism?

3. Why are so many holders of vested interests so scared of criticism, if their model is correct?
I like how you pre-load your discussion with "Christianity is a failure" and then completely neglect to substantiate your statement. That's a fairly juvenile debating tactic.
I would agree that it is a rather sweeping assertion, but largely it is a secondary point to his attack on Capitalism.

Personally I think in many ways Christianity has failed -- although to be fair I think all major religions have failed in different ways. Anyone that has read my posts, knows I am not some anti-religion atheist nutter --- I actually think that societies are better off with some notion of God and the divine. I also think that societies that value traditional values (that most major faiths share) are preferable to the Miley Cyrus (Lowest Common Denominator) world that dominates the west today.

One reason I suggest Christianity has failed, is that in many ways it has reduced Jesus to an "Icon" with few, if any, western countries reflecting true Christian values (Instead opting for war, vengeance, -- and many people reducing him to a "brand name" to be preferred over all others. All the oldest monotheistic texts warned against the biggest sin of "Idolatry" and sometimes I think Christians need to reflect on this (Not to say that Muslims,Jews, Buddhists, and Hindus have not created their own idols).

Let's face it, Western (Christian) Countries have absolutely dominated the world scene for the past 400+years. Capitalism has gone hand in hand with that with usury (arguably the biggest sin after idolatry) going hand in hand with that. One could debate the merits and demerits of the impact Western Civilization has had (both on itself and the rest of the world). From where I stand, I find it interesting that western countries -- all evolving from Christian beliefs systems and traditions, have in fact become some of the most Godless, Usury driven, exploitative countries in the world.

Of course it would be unfair to "Blame" all this on Christianity, but it would be interesting to discuss how Christianity, has contributed to Western "success" or whether it has restrained it.

Maybe better saved for another thread topic.

Cheers,

RD
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Re: Was Marx right?

Post by Rain Dog »

LTO wrote:
vladimir wrote:It's up to you, my friends often pull me up when they think I may be off track or my beliefs may be prejudicing me. if you think that you are above being checked, well that speaks for itself. I was merely reminding you not to let that interfere with your posts, tbh I did question your motives in joining the 'defend the flag at all costs' stance on that place in the two destitute guys thread, (which you then followed over here), I'm still puzzled, sorry if I was honest enough to say so.

To be fair, I wouldn't have checked you a year ago, but times and people change, yes?
Really? I don't recall ever mentioning my work here or anywhere on line. Are you sure this isn't your way of revealing people's personal information on line in order to threaten them to stay away from discussions in which you feel weak, or perhaps to get back at them for holding opinions different than yours?

It'll be interesting to see how the mods at CEO deal with people who post the personal information of others.
:facepalm: Does everything need to be about you and your petty obsessions. Nobody "outed" anything. This is a good topic and several have contributed thoughtful replies already.

I hope you can stop trying to derail the thread.

Cheers,

RD
Last edited by Rain Dog on Fri May 15, 2015 11:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Was Marx right?

Post by Rain Dog »

vladimir wrote:Forget for a minute that communism has largely failed in practice, so many other respectable and not-so-respectable doctrines - Christianity and capitalism respectively - have also failed if we look at the results: from wiki:

Karl Marx[note 1] (/mɑrks/;[4] German pronunciation: [ˈkaɐ̯l ˈmaɐ̯ks]; 5 May 1818 – 14 March 1883) was a German philosopher, economist, sociologist, journalist, and revolutionary socialist. Marx's work in economics laid the basis for much of the current understanding of labour and its relation to capital, and subsequent economic thought.[5][6][7][8] He published numerous books during his lifetime, the most notable being The Communist Manifesto (1848) and Das Kapital (1867–1894).

Born into a wealthy middle-class family in Trier in the Prussian Rhineland, Marx studied at the Universities of Bonn and Berlin where he became interested in the philosophical ideas of the Young Hegelians. After his studies he wrote for Rheinische Zeitung, a radical newspaper in Cologne, and began to work out the theory of the materialist conception of history. He moved to Paris in 1843, where he began writing for other radical newspapers and met Friedrich Engels, who would become his lifelong friend and collaborator. In 1849 he was exiled and moved to London together with his wife and children, where he continued writing and formulating his theories about social and economic activity. He also campaigned for socialism and became a significant figure in the International Workingmen's Association.

Marx's theories about society, economics and politics—the collective understanding of which is known as Marxism—hold that human societies progress through class struggle: a conflict between an ownership class that controls production and a dispossessed labouring class that provides the labour for production. States, Marx believed, were run on behalf of the ruling class and in their interest while representing it as the common interest of all;[9] and he predicted that, like previous socioeconomic systems, capitalism produced internal tensions which would lead to its self-destruction and replacement by a new system: socialism. He argued that class antagonisms under capitalism between the bourgeoisie and proletariat would eventuate in the working class' conquest of political power and eventually establish a classless society, communism, a society governed by a free association of producers.[10][11] Marx actively fought for its implementation, arguing that the working class should carry out organised revolutionary action to topple capitalism and bring about socio-economic change.[12]

Both lauded and criticized, Marx has been described as one of the most influential figures in human history.[13] Many intellectuals, labour unions and political parties worldwide have been influenced by Marx's ideas, with many variations on his groundwork. Marx is typically cited, with Émile Durkheim and Max Weber, as one of the three principal architects of modern social science.[14] End.

1. Was Marx right in his analysis of society?

2. What is the alternative to unfettered capitalism?

3. Why are so many holders of vested interests so scared of criticism, if their model is correct?

Interesting topic.

I agree with a lot of what GrinchSR said. Mark had a lot of insights as to his critique of capitalism and about how things work in General, but what grew out of Marxism was fundamentally flawed. He was too optimistic about human beings being able to work together for the "Common Good". The reality is that some people are willing to do heavy lifting, while others are happy laying in hammocks all day. Thus petty jealousies arise and demotivation results.

To counter this demotivation (in the lack of any profit motive) you need organizers with the authority to "Crack the whip" ..... once you have this .. you have an authoritative "Power Structue" controlling individuals in terms of both results required and benefits gained. It all starts to fall apart from there. As Lord Acton said .. "Power Corrupts; Absolute Power corrupts absolutely".

I think Lonestar makes a good case for how market economies outperform Government administered economies -- but unbridled Capitalism is not a good thing either. The richest country in the world (in terms of GDP) has well over 600,000 homeless at any point in time, and over 1.5 million children will be homeless at some point in time in a given year. The richest country in the word has some of the worst infrastructure of the so called "First World" ... in terms of trains, public transit, roads and bridges. Such necessities are of not much interest to those with their private helipads.

Today's unbridled Capitalism hardly resembles the Free Market orientation of Adam Smith 250 years ago.

Today's economies are fully centered on usury, which essentially exploits the poor by placing higher debt burdens on them, and rewards the ultra-wealthy for essentially doing nothing. In a perfect "USA Republican" world the wealth these uber-wealthy profiteers generate from the poor will then trickle back down and create more opportunities (If you believe Reagan and Thatcher). The reality is very different ... The rich become richer, the poor even more poor -- and the middle class (which typically fuels growth in the first place) shrinks.

Ultimately you wind up with a society of "Haves and Have Nots" and a "Service" economy where the increasingly financially stressed poor "Serve" their overlords.

That said if being forced to choose between Today's Capitalism or a more Marxist state administered economy -- I would go with Capitalism every time.

It at least offers you the chance to dream and gives at least the illusion of Freedom.

For a better ideology ... stay tuned :thumb:

Cheers,

RD
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vladimir
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Re: Was Marx right?

Post by vladimir »

I'm presently writing Vlad's Manifesto. For inspiration, and to keep Joi Dog happy, i'm being inspired for my motto by the world's greatest writer:

'First, we kill all the lawyers'
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Re: Was Marx right?

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LTO wrote: Really? I don't recall ever mentioning my work here or anywhere on line. Are you sure this isn't your way of revealing people's personal information on line in order to threaten them to stay away from discussions in which you feel weak, or perhaps to get back at them for holding opinions different than yours?

It'll be interesting to see how the mods at CEO deal with people who post the personal information of others.
Who posted personal information of others?

As I recall, you posted it yourself.
LTO wrote:17 years running a profitable business (not a social enterprise, NGO or charity) in Cambodia,
LTO wrote:
picooie wrote:LTO,
Also what sector is your business in?

picooie
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https://cambodiaexpatsonline.com/general ... 7-130.html
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vladimir
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Re: Was Marx right?

Post by vladimir »

btw, LTO and I sorted it out already. Let's keep on topic. (Yes! vlad suggested staying on topic!)
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Re: Was Marx right?

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vladimir wrote:btw, LTO and I sorted it out already.
Good to hear.

Moving along now. Cheers. :beer3:


Who is Richard Marx anyway?
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Re: Was Marx right?

Post by Rain Dog »

Username Taken wrote:
LTO wrote: Really? I don't recall ever mentioning my work here or anywhere on line. Are you sure this isn't your way of revealing people's personal information on line in order to threaten them to stay away from discussions in which you feel weak, or perhaps to get back at them for holding opinions different than yours?

It'll be interesting to see how the mods at CEO deal with people who post the personal information of others.
Who posted personal information of others?

As I recall, you posted it yourself.
LTO wrote:17 years running a profitable business (not a social enterprise, NGO or charity) in Cambodia,
LTO wrote:
picooie wrote:LTO,
Also what sector is your business in?

picooie
Media.
https://cambodiaexpatsonline.com/general ... 7-130.html
Excellent catch :thumb: (still looking for that backslap emoticon :mrgreen: )
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Re: Was Marx right?

Post by Rain Dog »

vladimir wrote:
2. What is the alternative to unfettered capitalism?
Here is a model I am familiar with. A free beer to the first person that can name the name of the model and the source (Without Googling the terms on the internet I hope)

Here is a skeleton outline of the ideology.

Basic Tenets:

1) Ownership of property is a fundamental right

2) Within an industry, means of production should be dispersed rather than centralized (whether it be the state, a few wealthy people, or a few big corporations)

Components:

1) Decentralization of production. Allowing smaller "units" to produce (where possible) should take precedent over allowing larger entities like (MNCs) taking over production -- particularly when they add no value other than the financial clout to (own a market).

2) The ability to earn a living without being fully reliant on the property of others --- output (and as a result wealth) might vary from owner to owner based on various factors (Motivation, luck, skill, ability) but everyone will have the opportunity to impact their own future -- resulting in greater motivation.

3) De-emphasis of labor unions in favor of industry specific professional associations and trade/craft unions. Labor unions are too associated with class struggle and inevitably lead to conflict rather than cooperation. Professional associations and trade/craft unions involve employers and employees alike resulting in a vested interest in the industry succeeding. Thus self-regulation becomes more plausible and some base floor level of expectations on performance, ethics, rights, and responsibilities can be established.

4) Dissolution (or at least underemphasis) on private banking (or at least the for profit interest based activities that drive it. Instead Credit Unions should play a greater role.

5) Industries can self-regulate for the most part (via Professional associations and Trade/Craft Unions), however Government authority must play an extremely active role in Antitrust legislation and enforcement, so that economic power not be corrupted by evolving into only being in the hands of a few.

There are some disadvantages to this model. For example dispersed markets will be less "efficient" due to lack of economies of scale. Technological growth might also be slowed in someways if the path to finding technical synergies with other partners becomes to difficult. That said, these problems are not unworkable -- and the dispersion of "players" in an industry could actually lead to more innovation.

It certainly seems a more humane and reasonable way.

What do you think?
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